Origins of Slavs: Archaeology, Linguistics, Anthropology, History

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Dec 2009
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Poland
They were invited to the land as craftsman.
No - I was talking about German peasants who settled in the countryside, in newly established villages.

The same as on northern Balkan.
I don't think that there Germans also settled in the countryside, did they?

The Kopts in Egypt still speak Koptic. After 1000 years.
No - they do not, they speak Arab like all other Egyptians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_language#Geographic_distribution

wikipedia said:
Coptic is an extinct language, in the sense that it has no native speakers.
It is only a liturgical language - just like Latin and to a great extent Hebrew.

As well in Turkey the process was never finished.
It was finished in the mainland and only in cities and along the coastlines some Greek-speakers remained.

But the genetic shows 21% of allegedly slavic gen
I don't think that 100% of Slavic people in year 500 AD were of R1a1 haplogroup, really.

Old Prussian is positioned between Baltic and Slavic languages
By whom ??? Old Prussian is a Baltic language.

And even in the early 19th century there were still over 200,000 (as of year 1825) "Lithuanians" in East Prussia:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Lithuanians"]Prussian Lithuanians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


I think that many of them were actually descendants of Old Prussians, and were called "Lithuanians" due to similarity of language.

Perhaps they were Old Prussians who - after the Teutonic conquest - were assimilated with neighbouring Lithuanians.

Isn't the assumption better, that the slavic language speaking were living aside, possibly not in towns, when Roman rule disintegrated, they suddenly appeared as Slavs.
It is not a better assumption because it does not explain why various tribes who lived thousands of miles from each other spoke very similar languages. And it also contradicts all of written sources which clearly say about invasions of Balkans by Slavic people.

possibly not in towns
Early Slavic invaders did not settle in cities, because they were not urban people.

Cities were gradually Slavicized only later, and it lasted much longer than Slavicization of the countryside.

But when Slavic people invaded the Balkans, there were not many cities left there (except of some particular areas).

Most of cities transformed into villages or declined completely already during the late period of Roman rule.

But Prussian in that time as Adam wrote was language of Wends
Prussian was never the language of Wends.

Wends lived in what is today Eastern Germany as well as in Western Pomerania (today north-western Poland).

Western Pomerania was even known as Slavonia until its conquest by crusaders during the 12th century.

and Hungarian was language of Pannonic Slavs.
Uhm, no - language of Pannonic Slavs (who were most certainly not very numerous*) was Slavic.

Hungarian is the same as Magyar. And modern Hungarian is in no way similar to Slavic languages.

*Medieval Pannonia had a low density of population - this was the case even many centuries after the arrival of Magyars.

Slavs did in 10-20 years extensively
Maybe this explains why Slavic people were assimilating local population so easily:

"(...) They do not keep prisoners in perpetual slavery like other peoples, but they demarcate for them a limited period of time, after which they give them a choice: they can return home after purchasing their freedom, or stay among them as free people and friends. (...)"

This is what Strategikon of Maurice writes about Slavs. Other sources confirm that early Slavs were to a large extent democratic.

But in some other cases Slavic warriors murdered all men of conquered populations, while taking only women and children with them. This happened for example after Slavic warriors captured the town of Toperus in the Aegean Islands (Procopius, III.3.9-19).

already few years after there was "Provincia Sclaborum" in 595 A.D. (Paulus Diaconus, Historia Langobardorum, c. IV, 7) in Eastern Alps.

In 595 according to Vita St. Columbiani they have already Provincia and are rich enough, to be attacked by Tassilo and Bavarians.
Not only they did they have "Provincia Sclaborum" in Eastern Alps, but also "Sklavonia terra" in Western Peloponnese and "Slavonia" in Western Pomerania at the Baltic Sea, and "Wendland" in Saxony-Anhalt and Lower Saxony (which was Slavic-speaking until modern times).

Map showing Slavic tribes in the Peloponnese from Zofia Kurnatowska's "Słowiańszczyzna Południowa":

http://s21.postimg.org/sv442v3qv/Slavs_in_Greece.png



Among the southernmost Slavic tribes in Greece were Milingowie (Μιληγγοί; Milengoi) and Jeziercy (Ἐζερῖται; Ezerītai):

[ame="http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milingowie"]Milingowie – Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia[/ame]

[ame="http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeziercy"]Jeziercy – Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia[/ame]


"Wendland" in Saxony-Anhalt and Lower Saxony (which was Slavic-speaking until modern times).
Wendland was inhabited by Drzewianie (Drevlans). According to this article (in Polish):

http://koszalin7.pl/st/pom/pomorze_101.html

In Küsten near Lüchow last remains of Drevlan language in use were from year 1902.
 
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84
Carniola
I don't think that there Germans also settled in the countryside, did they?
Yes, mainly countryside. Heard for Gotschee deutsche, Donau Schwaben?

No - they do not, they speak Arab like all other Egyptians:
But is liturgical language. Champoleon learnd it by decoding the hieroglyphs. Still spoken.

It was finished in the mainland and only in cities and along the coastlines some Greek-speakers remained.
It shows you how long the process take. Majority started to use Turkish language, because it was more practical.

I don't think that 100% of Slavic people in year 500 AD were of R1a1 haplogroup, really.
There are only 6% place names in Slovenia of "unknown origin". If the former population would have been assimilated, there were more.

It is not a better assumption because it does not explain why various tribes who lived thousands of miles from each other spoke very similar languages. And it also contradicts all of written sources which clearly say about invasions of Balkans by Slavic people.
Please, study possibly the oldest slavic latine letters text. Freisinger manuscript. Transcribed between 972 and 1039, but assumed originally in 9th century. Compare it with bogurodzica. You say one language.

2101 Ecc,e bi detd nas neze
2102 gresil tevuekigemube
2103 siti starosti neprigem
2104 lio'ki nikoligese pet
2105 sali neimugi nislzna
2106 telezeimoki nuu'vu,e
2107 kigemubesiti bone
2108 sezavuiztiubui ne
2109 priiazninu uvignan
2110 Odszlauuibosig,e Potom
2111 nanarodzlovuezki
2112 strazti Ipetzali boi
2113 do neimoki Ibzzre
2114 duzemirt. Ipagibra
2115 triia pomenem ze
2116 dai zino uuebosi na
2117 resemze botomu Oz

Hungarian is the same as Magyar. And modern Hungarian is in no way similar to Slavic languages.

*Medieval Pannonia had a low density of population - this was the case even many centuries after the arrival of Magyars.
There is second possibility, that Adam was thinking on Hungarian ruling class and Old Prussian and it sounded to someone like Magyar and Finnish / Estonian today. Similar sounding. The population density of Pannonia is pure assumption. Check R1a1 distribution among Hungarians. They are allegedly more Slavs than Poles are.
 

Dreamhunter

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
7,486
Malaysia
"(...) son [Leszek III] expanded his father's state, but even more he added to his father's achievements: he defeated Julius Caesar in three battles, in the land of Parthians he smashed Crassus with all his forces, and pouring gold to his mouth, said: "You wanted gold, now drink it". He was commanding both the Getae and the Parthians, as well as lands located beyond the Parthians.
I guess one's gotta take that story with lots of grains of salt. One wonders why the Parthian, or Roman for that matter, records on the Battle of Carrhae never mentioned any Prince Leszek from Poland. Although one has heard about that execution by gulping of hot gold story quite often. Was probably invented by a creative ancient Persian drama actor or director.
 
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Dec 2009
5,558
Poland
You say one language.
Actually - I didn't. I said that there were several different Slavic languages already early one (because the original Slavic homeland was large in my opinion). What I wrote is only that they were similar to each other.

Please, study possibly the oldest slavic latine letters text. Freisinger manuscript. Transcribed between 972 and 1039, but assumed originally in 9th century. Compare it with bogurodzica.
Interesting text but I'm not sure if we can compare it Bogurodzica which is from a much later period than 972 - 1039. It would be better to compare it to birchbark literacy from Medieval Rus (but they are not latine letters texts):

[ame="http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramoty_na_brzozowej_korze"]Gramoty na brzozowej korze ? Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia[/ame]


Äðåâíåðóññêèå áåðåñòÿíûå ãðàìîòû.

The oldest known written sentence in Polish is not Bogurodzica but "Day, ut ia pobrusa, a ti poziwai" from Book of Henryków (13th century).

An earlier text - the Bull of Gniezno from 1136 - contains 410 various Polish words - including names of people, cities and places.

Below "Kazania gnieźnieńskie" and "Kazania świętokrzyskie", both written in Polish at the turns of the 13th and the 14th centuries:

http://staropolska.pl/sredniowiecze/kazania_i_mowy/Narodzenie_1.html

http://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/Kazania_świętokrzyskie/Kazanie_na_Dzień_Świętego_Michała

Here "Legenda o świętym Aleksym" from the same period (late 13th / early 14th centuries):

http://staropolska.pl/sredniowiecze/poezja_religijna/sw_aleksy_01.html

"Psałterz floriański" - Polish text also from the same period (13th / 14th centuries):

http://staropolska.pl/sredniowiecze/biblia_i_apokryfy/psalterz_florianski_01.html

Bogurodzica is from this period as well.

And here for example text of two prayers printed in Polish language - from 1475:

"Ojcze nasz" ("Our father") prayer:

"Otcze naſs genz gſi nanyebeſach oſwyentcze
gmye twe budz twa wuola. yako na
nebi tako nazemy. Chleb naſs wſſedny
day nam diſſa od puſſtz nam naſſe wynny
yako my odpuſſtiame naſſim wynowatczom.
Ee newodyz nas napokuſchenya ale
zbaw nas odzleho Amen".

"Zdrowaś Mario" ("Hail Mary") prayer:

"Szdrawa Maria miloſtczi pylna Bog ſt
abu boguſlawyenas ti myezi newyeſticzami
bgiſlaweny owocz plod brzuchat tuego
ſuantego ihezus criſtus Amen".

And in this text, " ſ " should be read as " s " or " ś ", while " ſſ " should be read in the same way as modern Polish " sz ".

And one more prayer from 1475 - "Wierzę w Boga" ("I believe in God"):

 
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84
Carniola
Interesting text but I'm not sure if we can compare it Bogurodzica which is from a much later period than 972 - 1039.
It has interesting detail. Beside speak - glagolite;

1101 GLAGOLITE PONAZ REDKA ZLOUEZA.
1102 Bose gozpodi miloztiuv'i. otze bose. tebe izpovuede.
1103 vuez moi greh. I'zuetemu creztu. I'zuetei marii. I'zue
1104 temu michaelu. Iuuizem crilatcem bosiem.

In that time the angels still were - krilatci (wingmen).

You have modern reading as it should be on You tube. The title says pannonian slavic. Anyway, the oldest known latin written slavic if not the oldest. When slavic according to you was still more or less the same. :deadhorse:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCmXpiCtRjs]Freising Manuscript 1, Old Pannonian - YouTube[/ame]

Ok, compare from 1380
Otſcha naſs kyr ſy w nebeſſich poſſwetſchenu body
twoye yme pridi bogaſtwu twoye body wolatwoya kakor w nebeſſich yno na ſemly. Kruch naſswſedanny day nam dannaſs yno odpuſti namdalge naſſe kakor yno my odpuſſchamo naſſen dalnykomyno naſs ne wuppellay wedner o yſſkuſbo le naſs reſſy obod ſlega. Amen.
Allegedly the most western point of Slavs live in valley Resia in Italy, the speak Lingua Resiana. It is not understandable to slovenes.

Their Padernoster from 18th Century. Some people connect them with Rhëti-Romani. They say to speach - romon (romoniti - to speak). And "roseanski romon" means resian speach. Rhetoromani say they speak romansh. Kilometers north towards Alpine word, there is a sunken village and coincidence again it is called Resia and lago di Resia. And the rheto-romani were romanized or germanized.






















































Oča naš, ki si vu nebésaj!
Svéti se Ime tvoje.
Pridi králestvo tvoje.
Bojdi vola tvoja,
kak na nébi, tak i na zemli.
Krüha našega vsakdanéšnjega daj nam
ga dnes.
I odpüsti nam duge naše,
kak i mi odpüščamo dužnikom našim.
I ne vpelaj nas vu sküšávanje.
Nego odslobodi nas od hüdoga.
Amen.


Padernoster from Pannonian Slavs, at least those that had left.
 
Dec 2009
5,558
Poland
Ok, compare from 1380
Otſcha naſs kyr ſy w nebeſſich poſſwetſchenu body
twoye yme pridi bogaſtwu twoye body wolatwoya kakor w nebeſſich yno na ſemly. Kruch naſswſedanny day nam dannaſs yno odpuſti namdalge naſſe kakor yno my odpuſſchamo naſſen dalnykomyno naſs ne wuppellay wedner o yſſkuſbo le naſs reſſy obod ſlega. Amen.
Allegedly the most western point of Slavs live in valley Resia in Italy, the speak Lingua Resiana. It is not understandable to slovenes.

Oča naš, ki si vu nebésaj!
Svéti se Ime tvoje.
Pridi králestvo tvoje.
Bojdi vola tvoja,
kak na nébi, tak i na zemli.
Krüha našega vsakdanéšnjega daj nam
ga dnes.
I odpüsti nam duge naše,
kak i mi odpüščamo dužnikom našim.
I ne vpelaj nas vu sküšávanje.
Nego odslobodi nas od hüdoga.
Amen.
Padernoster from Pannonian Slavs, at least those that had left.
I can understand most of words from both these texts above (but in case of some words - such as vsakdanéšnjega - I guess their meaning only because I know what prayer it is). But majority of words sound familiar and understandable to me - especially from this 1380 prayer.

=============================

When it comes to this Old Pannonian (edit: it is actually a Slovene text, according to wikipedia - see the link below):

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freising_manuscripts"]Freising manuscripts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCmXpiCtRjs"]Freising Manuscript 1, Old Pannonian - YouTube[/ame]

Here I cannot understand some words at first glance. But this would be the translation to English:

It begins:

"God, loving Landlord, father God, thee shrive me, take my sin;
And blessed baptism [or Saint Christoph?], and Saint Mary, and Saint Michael, (...)
etc., etc., etc.

In Polish this would be:

"Boże, Gospodarzu miłościwy, ojcze Boże, ty mnie wyspowiadaj, weź mój grzech;
I świętemu chrztu [czy Krzysztofowi?], i świętej Maryi, i świętemu Michałowi, (...)
etc., etc., etc.

I can easily try to "figure out" the meaning of more of it, and not without success (but it would take some time and some thinking).

======================================

BTW:

This Old Pannonian sounds like something "intermediary" between how Russian sounds (until 1:13 of video below) and how Polish (1:14 - 6:40):

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3efQ8yXmFg"]Reduta Ordona - YouTube[/ame]

Here you have some variants of English translation:

http://www.transcriptsearch.com.es/id/iF6Qe23HoDs

http://www.poemhunter.com/best-poems/aleksandra-szymanska/my-tribute-to-adam-mickiewicz/

http://www.petermarkan.org/aa_redutaordona.html
 
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84
Carniola
This Old Pannonian sounds like something "intermediary" between how Russian sounds (until 1:13 of video below) and how Polish (1:14 - 6:40):
Yes, that is correct. I like Russian, because it uses the words from serbo-croatian and slovenian. I speak some slavic languages and russian among them. No scientific motives, only merchant ones. But I found the polish the most difficult, to understand. And the most distinct from my language.

I tried to explain myself this fact. The only one was, that the Danube and Pannonia was the motherland of Slavs. Where they are originaly named and still have original name. Slovensko, Slavonsko and again in Slovakia Slovensko. According to Nestor, the Russians settled there later and assimilated (linguistically) Finns and other nations. Still today, if I see Vladimir Putin, I can compare his look with Matty Nikaenen, the famous Finnish ski jumper.
 
Dec 2009
5,558
Poland
The only one was, that the Danube and Pannonia was the motherland of Slavs.
It doesn't need to be their original motherland, it could be one of their "temporary motherlands" during their expansion / migration.

But according to the legend of Lech, Czech and Rus (legendary founders of Poland, Czechia and Rus) - these three brothers started their journey from "area behind Croatian ountains" - and that would be Pannonia, which is behind the Carpathian Mountains.

Maybe Pannonia is where White Croatia was located:

White Croatia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe after the Magyar invasion of Pannonia in the 9th century, Pannonian Slavs started to abandon that area, emigrating from there.

The Bavarian Geographer - an early 9th century source - does not mention a tribe called Polans anywhere in territory of modern Poland. And some years later - during early 10th century - the tribe called Polans founded a state, conquered neighbouring tribes, establishing Poland.

Some historians assume that Polans were mentioned by the Bavarian Geographer under the name Glopeani (a tribe with 400 strongholds).

But another possibility is, that Polans migrated to area of modern Poland after the Bavarian Geographer was written.

Please note that apart from Polans in modern Poland, another tribe of the same name - Polans - was recorded at the Dnieper River.

It is possible, that those eastern Polans founded the city of Kiev (was their leader called "Rus" ??? ;)).

Some historians say, that groups of Polans from Ukraine migrated to modern Poland, establishing the western branch of Polans.

But maybe this is wrong - maybe both western and eastern Polans originally lived in Pannonia, and migrated from there ???
 
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Another Early Medieval source which describes Poland as a Slavic country is Gallus Anonymous.

Excerpt from his chronicle (completed probably between years 1112 and 1118):

"(...) Poland is the northern part of Slavdom, and has as its neighbours Rus to the east, Hungary to the south, Moravia and Czechia to the south-west, Denmark and Saxony to the west. And from the direction of the North Sea, that is the Amphitrional Sea, it has three neighbouring each other, very savage peoples of barbarian pagans, namely the Sillende, Pomerania and Prussia, countries against which the Duke of Poland fights intensely, in order to convert them to the Christian faith. (...)"

Another version of translation:

"(...) Poland is the northernmost part of the Slavic lands and has as its neighbors Ruthenia to the east, Hungary to the south, Moravia and Bohemia to the southwest, and Denmark and Saxony to the west. From the direction of the Northern (Amphitrional) Sea it is home to three very savage peoples, barbarous pagans, namely the Selencia, Pomerania and Borussia, with whom the Prince of Poland fights persistently, in order to bring them to the Faith (...). The country [Poland] is very forested but is overflowing with an abundance in gold, silver, bread, meat, fish, honey and in this way deserves to be placed on a higher order than any other country, and even though it is surrounded and fought against by many other peoples, both Christian and pagan, it has never been enslaved by any other (...)"
 
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Poland
paratom said:
Check R1a1 distribution among Hungarians. They are allegedly more Slavs than Poles are.
Not really, Sir:

http://historum.com/european-history/28961-bosnian-croatian-serbian-ethinicity-31.html#post1669507?postcount=308

Map of Slavic languages in Europe in % of native speakers (including immigrants) by country:



And Y-DNA haplogroups in Slavic countries (green) and in countries with large Slavic-speaking minorities (bright green):

Plus some other countries / ethnic groups which share the same predominant haplogroup for comparison:




As you can see from this data above, the two most typical for Slavic people major Y-DNA haplogroups are R1a and I2.

Also Y-DNA haplogroup E is very frequent among Southern Slavs.

I2 - as can be seen above - is most frequent among Southern Slavs, but also quite frequent among other Slavs.
 
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