Pagan Societies were barbaric because Christian values were not around.

Oct 2018
293
Adelaide south Australia
She edited one of the book of Ptolemy's Almagest and would presumably have taught astronomy by commenting on his works, which advocated the geocentric theory; there is no evidence to show that she ever gave any thought to the heliocentric system. Aristarchus of Samos advocated the heliocentric system in the latter part of the 3rd Century BC, but as far as I can remeber there are only a handful of references to it in ancient sources, so it doesn't seem to have been taken very seriously; Plutarch says somewhere that he developed the idea as a hypothesis and that a follower of his, Seleucus, tried to prove it. I think people probably would have viewed advocates of heliocentrism in much the same way as those who question Darwinian orthodoxies are viewed nowadays! On Hypatia, may I recommend Maria Dzielska's book, which is very short (under 200 pages) and very readable. The different ways in which she has been viewed at different times is one of the most interesting things about her.
Thanks again. I had wondered about that, even though Aristotle's reasoning seems odd, if reported correctly: we can't feel the earth moving and no wind is generated.Was it Aristotle who taught about womens' wandering wombs?

I'll see if I can get hold of that book for a reasonable price (up to $20) from The Book Depository.----------5 minutes later; yep, they have it, $A21.11, delivered from England. I've bought it.
 
Aug 2010
14,645
Wessex
I think the medical writers were to blame for the wandering wombs! Aristotle didn't start from nothing on his cosmology, he began from the ideas of Eudoxus and others, but in so many respects it really as if he just sat down in a garden and tried to work out the truth about physics, biology, cosmology, and human nature and morality, virtually from scratch, and it is a wonder that he didn't go wrong on a much more massive scale than he actually did; a man of absolutely staggering genius, it is hard to think of anyone else like him. You can blame me of you don't like the book, but I thought it very illuminating, and it is good to find someone who takes the trouble to get her thoughts so clear that she can cover so much ground in such a small space. On Late Antiquity have you tried the various works of Peter Brown, 'The World of Late Antiquity' is a another short book, packed with ideas that give one a totally different perspective on this very strange period of history, everything that he wrote is good, a historian of real genius I think.
 
Oct 2018
293
Adelaide south Australia
I think the medical writers were to blame for the wandering wombs! Aristotle didn't start from nothing on his cosmology, he began from the ideas of Eudoxus and others, but in so many respects it really as if he just sat down in a garden and tried to work out the truth about physics, biology, cosmology, and human nature and morality, virtually from scratch, and it is a wonder that he didn't go wrong on a much more massive scale than he actually did; a man of absolutely staggering genius, it is hard to think of anyone else like him. You can blame me of you don't like the book, but I thought it very illuminating, and it is good to find someone who takes the trouble to get her thoughts so clear that she can cover so much ground in such a small space. On Late Antiquity have you tried the various works of Peter Brown, 'The World of Late Antiquity' is a another short book, packed with ideas that give one a totally different perspective on this very strange period of history, everything that he wrote is good, a historian of real genius I think.

Can't say I've hear of Peter Brown, but I've come across a great many lunatic ideas from antiquity and the medieval period. More than a few are still believed., especially in the fields of religion and medicine. One doesn't need to look further than Youtube, and from time-to-time, this forum.

I never sneer at the ancients fo getting things wrong. Thinkers such as Aristotle, Galen, Ptolemy and many many more did the best they could with observation and knowledge of the time. It is also my belief that the anti science stance of the Christian church especially retarded scientific progress over centuries,

To any Christian apologist who denies this observation: The church has ALWAYS supported science , with one caveat; it dare not contradict doctrine. Then, it liked to burn people alive for heresy. One great man murdered by the Church was Giordiano Bruno, killed in 1600.

Giordano Bruno (/dʒɔːrˈdɑːnoʊ ˈbruːnoʊ/; Italian: [dʒorˈdaːno ˈbruːno]; Latin: Iordanus Brunus Nolanus; born Filippo Bruno, 1548 – 17 February 1600) was an Italian Dominican friar, philosopher, mathematician, poet, and cosmological theorist.[3] He is known for his cosmological theories, which conceptually extended the then-novel Copernican model. He proposed that the stars were distant suns surrounded by their own planets, and he raised the possibility that these planets might foster life of their own, a philosophical position known as cosmic pluralism. He also insisted that the universe is infinite and could have no "center".

The charges against him:


Giordano Bruno - Wikipedia


0000000000000000

PS: The belief in the "wandering womb" was found in ancient Greece. Some scholars have argued that it originated in Egypt, but this has now been disproved.[1]One description of the theory of a "wandering womb" comes from Aretaeus, a physician from Cappadocia, who was a contemporary of Galen in the 2nd century AD. He wrote that the uterus could move out of place, and float within the body. In the translation of Francis Adams (1856)[2] this reads:

Wandering womb - Wikipedia
 
Last edited:
Sep 2015
1,436
England
I don't think anyone is denying any of the things bad, that Christians have perpetrated and been involved in. But those on the offensive against Christians or the Christian religious movement (as above), are denying - and tend to deny - the positive influence, and more specifically the positive points raised in this thread about the contrast with other civilisations, and the OP, and the question 'barbaric or less barbaric' (since nothing is all or nothing, pretty much, except all or nothing). These things must be relative, since they differ. And since they differ we can evaluate them. This is a pointless discussion (eternally) if we just deny bits and pieces of reality we don't happen to like, or that doesn't fit neatly in with some ideological line of attack.
 
Last edited:
Sep 2015
1,436
England
Giordano Bruno (/dʒɔːrˈdɑːnoʊ ˈbruːnoʊ/; Italian: [dʒorˈdaːno ˈbruːno]; Latin: Iordanus Brunus Nolanus; born Filippo Bruno, 1548 – 17 February 1600) was an Italian Dominican friar, philosopher, mathematician, poet, and cosmological theorist.[3] He is known for his cosmological theories, which conceptually extended the then-novel Copernican model. He proposed that the stars were distant suns surrounded by their own planets, and he raised the possibility that these planets might foster life of their own, a philosophical position known as cosmic pluralism. He also insisted that the universe is infinite and could have no "center".

The charges against him:
Giordano Bruno - Wikipedia
He probably would liked Harry Potter as well.
 
Oct 2018
293
Adelaide south Australia
I am not denying Christianity, or any religion has done and continues to do some very good things. I'm especially in favour of helping people starving to death, or in danger of death by war.

The crimes of which I accuse the Christian church are provable. That you make a joke of the murder of Giordiano Bruno suggests a severe case of cognitive dissonance. (look it up)--or as is pithily put in Orwell's1984 , "double think"

I do not have a ideological objection to christianity. I have moral and ethical differences , which have been long established over centuries.

Accept, don't accept, I could not care less. My posts were not aimed at christian apologists, who are impervious to facts or reason.

There is no common ground. IE to even c consider a serious argument, I would demand that you first prove the existence of God.

To that end, I urge you to spend some time looking/ listening to couple of debates


The first one: The proposition is " The Catholic Church is a force for Good"

Arguing the affirmative; Anne Whiticombe and Archbishop John Onalyekan

Arguing the negative: Stephen Fry. & Christopher Hitchens

An admission: I have never had a lot of time for Christopher Hitchens, who I have always considered a polemicist rather than a philosopher. His book "God is not great' illustrates my point.

I leave it to you to decide who wins.



If you are still in the mood after that that; a radio debate (sound only)

The 1948 Russell/Singleton debate, with Bertrand Russell and Frederick Charles Copleston SJ.

This version is edited, but a transcript of the full debate is fairly easy to get hold of

 
Likes: Zanis
Sep 2015
1,436
England
We want to stand upon our own feet and look fair and square at the world - its good facts, its bad facts, its beauties, and its ugliness; see the world as it is, and be not afraid of it.'

'A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage...It needs...a free intelligence...It needs hope for the future, not looking back all the time towards a past that is dead, which we trust will be far surpassed by the future that our intelligence can create.’

Bertrand Russell

These quotes above which are from Bertrand Russell, and not from the clip, is probably top stuff, depending on your point of view, but there is a deficiency in the last bit. That the future would appear a material future, created by our collective intelligence, but it does not say that our intelligence or collective intelligence will surpass our past intelligence. History repeats itself is a phrase we may be encountering on a regular basis here at Historum, and have encountered, and the reason is probably the usual definciencies of human intelligence (and collective intelligence). Sure, i mean evolution.
 
Oct 2018
293
Adelaide south Australia
The Harry Potter line, was not a joke. It is haram for some.
Ah, of course. I had forgotten just how wilfully ignorant and idiotic some believers can be. A lot of Christians have the same view. I'm not willing to get into argument about witchcraft and other absurdities about Harry Potter.--It's a series of Children's books, which do no harm. That is more than can be said of any of the sacred books of the abrahamic faiths

Bertrand Russell was one of the great thinkers of his time ,a pretty much accepted view as far as I know..

Your comments about collective intelligence don't make sense to me. You've used a straw man; collective intelligence is not in discussion, and there is no reason to think it will become less rather than more.

Evolution is established and accepted scientific fact, and not in discussion. There is no reason to think the collective intelligence of human beings will be reduced over time. The same relatively small percentage will continue to make the advances it has always made.

Seems to me that we inhabit different worlds. Not interested in any further discussion with you on this topic.
 
Likes: Zanis