Pagan Societies were barbaric because Christian values were not around.

Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
The prime example of all of this, and the related 'cult brainwashing' was in Hassan i Sabbah ... an interesting historical example

Snap! I was thinking of him as I read your post; from his disciples we get the word "assassin' , from their use of hashish. Considered as near-invincible assassins because of their willingness, even eagerness to die.

I agree that Faith can be a good thing for the Individual, but blind faith, or faith without reason can be a danger to society, especially towards dissidents.


OT; Myth? The early Christian church was forced to issue an edict banning the seeking of martyrdom due to quite large numbers who simply couldn't wait to meet Jesus, and committed suicide by lion..
 
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Nov 2010
7,266
Cornwall
The prime example of all of this, and the related 'cult brainwashing' was in Hassan i Sabbah ... an interesting historical example

Snap! I was thinking of him as I read your post; from his disciples we get the word "assassin' , from their use of hashish. Considered as near-invincible assassins because of their willingness, even eagerness to die.
..
Yes I think he was more into political manouvering (by assassination) and personal power/money rather tha dead-on religion from the impregnable (at the time) Alamut. Not unrelated to the Templars if you read deep into this sort of thing (Maalouf etc). They were also into money and political influence and like minds tend to attract.

The Templar tactic of heading straight for the Head and cutting it off was probably derived from the Assassins and applied to field battle. It was displayed at Las Navas de Tolosa and possibly - at the risk of putting 2 historical theories into one - at Bannockburn. In both cases the panicked retreat of the Caliph/King and entourage caused a general rout and saved a lot of fighting!! Templars were definitely present at Las Navas and probably at Bannockburn
 
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specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
2,531
Australia
The practice I was referring to, re the 'brainwashing; the 'acolyte' is inducted on a simple physical level and drugged, they come to in a secret part of the compound that has been made to look like 'paradise'. Still in their drug stupor they are fed and 'waited 'upon by 'heavenly concubines' and a given a taste of the 'good afterlife' . and pampered. Drugged again they pass out and are awaken back at their induction and told they went to heaven (for a bit) at the grace of their Master, when they die, they will live there permanently.

Hence the personal devotion and willingness to die on his whim .

I thought their main weapon was a dagger ? I have read that it got to the stage with them, their renown and the fear they caused ( with long term 'sleeping agents' one never knew when a Hashishim might be present ) that in some cases only leaving the dagger there (in their room, stuck in the bed, etc ). was enough to get others to reconsider their plans and actions.

Now, I am running on memory here , I read . it a while back ,that Hassan, Omar Kayhyam and Nizam al-Mulk made a pact in their youth (or at 'University' ? ) that whoever found success would help the other two. The other two did but then ignored Hassan and that set him off on his path . It might be a fiction though ?

... OT; Myth? The early Christian church was forced to issue an edict banning the seeking of martyrdom due to quite large numbers who simply couldn't wait to meet Jesus, and committed suicide by lion..
Indeed .... if it is so great, why not go there immediatly :)

(That 'logic' o/nly seems to work when dispatching others to the Lord's realm ; " Kill them all, God will sort them out in heaven ."

[
While discussions were still going on with the barons about the release of those in the city who were deemed to be Catholics, the servants and other persons of low rank and unarmed attacked the city without waiting for orders from their leaders. To our amazement, crying "to arms, to arms!", within the space of two or three hours they crossed the ditches and the walls and Béziers was taken. Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt … [2]

About twenty years later Caesarius of Heisterbach relates this story about the massacre,


When they discovered, from the admissions of some of them, that there were Catholics mingled with the heretics they said to the abbot "Sir, what shall we do, for we cannot distinguish between the faithful and the heretics." The abbot, like the others, was afraid that many, in fear of death, would pretend to be Catholics, and after their departure, would return to their heresy, and is said to have replied "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius - Kill them [all] for the Lord knoweth them that are His" (2 Tim. ii. 19) and so countless number in that town were slain​

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. - Wikipedia.

Now there is some Christian morality for ya ! Just as well they came along to give those pagans some ethics and morals based on Christian values !

:smirk:
 
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specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
2,531
Australia
Yes I think he was more into political manouvering (by assassination) and personal power/money rather tha dead-on religion from the impregnable (at the time) Alamut. Not unrelated to the Templars if you read deep into this sort of thing (Maalouf etc). They were also into money and political influence and like minds tend to attract.

.....
Most religious leaders are into political maneuvering and personal money / power ... its the followers that are into 'dead-on' religion.

I doubt even the Iranian revolution would have happened if those wanting to seize power were not motivated by also seizing the poppy fields . ...oil fields .... poppy fields .... buffer states ..... religion itself is actually way down the scale ... its a 'cloaking device' .
 
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Sep 2015
1,549
England
The practice I was referring to, re the 'brainwashing; the 'acolyte' is inducted on a simple physical level and drugged, they come to in a secret part of the compound that has been made to look like 'paradise'. Still in their drug stupor they are fed and 'waited 'upon by 'heavenly concubines' and a given a taste of the 'good afterlife' . and pampered. Drugged again they pass out and are awaken back at their induction and told they went to heaven (for a bit) at the grace of their Master, when they die, they will live there permanently.

Hence the personal devotion and willingness to die on his whim .
I think you might have been reading Marco Polo for this opening paragraph.
The man who told a million lies, no less...!!!?? IL MILIONE !!!
:zany: :lol: :party: :lol: :D

and a merry ol Xmas an all.
 
May 2011
2,674
Rural Australia
I agree that Faith can be a good thing for the Individual, but blind faith, or faith without reason can be a danger to society, especially towards dissidents.
It was the usual practice in antiquity for the Christian Emperors (Constantine and his continuators such as Theodosius) to provide good reason why individuals should believe in the beliefs of the State Cult.

Here is a sample:


380 CE

...I, 2. IT IS Our will that all the peoples who are ruled by the administration of Our Clemency shall practice that religion which the divine Peter the Apostle transmitted to the Romans, as the religion which he introduced makes clear even unto this day. It is evident that this is the religion that is followed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic sanctity; that is, according to the apostolic discipline and the evangelic doctrine, we shall believe in the single Deity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, under the concept of equal majesty and of the Holy Trinity. We command that those persons who follow this rule shall embrace the name of Catholic Christians.​
The rest, however, whom We adjudge demented and insane, shall sustain the infamy of heretical dogmas, their meeting places shall not receive the name of churches, and they shall be smitten first by divine vengeance and secondly by the retribution of Our own initiative, which We shall assume in accordance with the divine judgment​
(Codex Theodosianus 28 February 380).​
This is known as the Big Stick reason for having faith in the State Cult.​
Needless to say it has insidiously persisted "even unto this day" in all the State "Book" cults of planet Earth.​
 
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Sep 2015
1,549
England
It was the usual practice in antiquity for the utterly corrupt Church Corporation tp provide reason why individuals should believe.
Here is a sample:


380 CE

...I, 2. IT IS Our will that all the peoples who are ruled by the administration of Our Clemency shall practice that religion which the divine Peter the Apostle transmitted to the Romans, as the religion which he introduced makes clear even unto this day. It is evident that this is the religion that is followed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic sanctity; that is, according to the apostolic discipline and the evangelic doctrine, we shall believe in the single Deity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, under the concept of equal majesty and of the Holy Trinity. We command that those persons who follow this rule shall embrace the name of Catholic Christians.​
The rest, however, whom We adjudge demented and insane, shall sustain the infamy of heretical dogmas, their meeting places shall not receive the name of churches, and they shall be smitten first by divine vengeance and secondly by the retribution of Our own initiative, which We shall assume in accordance with the divine judgment​
(Codex Theodosianus 28 February 380).​
This is known as the Big Stick reason for having faith in the State Cult.​
Needless to say it has persisted to the present in all the book cults of planet Earth.​
It would appear however that the Codex Theodosianus 28 February 380: 'went into force in the eastern and western parts of the empire in 439.'

'The Theodosian Code was the first occasion since the Twelve Tables on which a Roman government had attempted by public authority to collect and publish its leges'.

'...[it also attempted] to solidify Christianity as the official religion of the Empire, after it had been decriminalised under Galerius' rule and promoted under Constantine's.'

So that looks like the all important context, and relevance of your post. Motive?
for patent slander and smear
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
If you have not done so, I strongly recommend having a look at retired Anglican Archbishop John Shelby Spong. He's also written at least one book, which I have not yet read.

The good archbishop is a serious embarrassment to his church: Below, Jesus for the non religious:

A couple óf quotes: "Hell was invented by the church." "Religion is about control"

 
Sep 2015
1,549
England
If you have not done so, I strongly recommend having a look at retired Anglican Archbishop John Shelby Spong. He's also written at least one book, which I have not yet read.

The good archbishop is a serious embarrassment to his church: Below, Jesus for the non religious:

A couple óf quotes: "Hell was invented by the church." "Religion is about control"

I'm listening to it, but this quote will be the key.

'Religion plays an undeniable role in the life of society, introducing ideas of the sacred and the transcendental that spread their influence across all the customs and ceremonies of membership. But religious obedience is not a necessary part of citizenship, and in any conflict it is the duties of the citizen, and not those of the believer, that must prevail. It is one of the triumphs of Christian civilisation to have held on to the Christian vision of human destiny, while acknowledging the priority of secular Law.'
 
May 2011
2,674
Rural Australia
It would appear however that the Codex Theodosianus 28 February 380: 'went into force in the eastern and western parts of the empire in 439.'
It was also a collection of earlier laws which had been in force.
The edicts I cited from Theodosius are accepted to be part of his pogrom against non christians.
Christian persecution of paganism under Theodosius I - Wikipedia

So that looks like the all important context, and relevance of your post. Motive?
for patent slander and smear
Motive? Historical truth.
 
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