Pakistan Justice Opposing Muslim Fundamentalists

kandal

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,524
USA
#21
Quran instructs us not to insult your numerous gods of Hinduism ;

"And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah, lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do. [6:108] Surah Al-An'am [6:108]
What merit if any this quote carries when Mohammed himself foul mouthed the Gods and beliefs of Meccans, and eventually came back with his invading force and broke their idols threw them into garbage, and forcibly converted them into Islam at the pain of death? Wasn't that the ultimate blasphemy? Wasn't that the ultimate insult? Wasn't this example of Mohammed that the Muslim invaders followed to destroy the many temples of the numerous gods of Hinduism?

And there are too many Quranic verses like this that totally negate your quote:
"Make war on them (Unbelievers) until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme (8:39).
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Following is a list of blasphemy insults that Muslims have used to accuse and punish others:

Blasphemy against holy personages
Blasphemy against beliefs and customs
  • finding fault with Islam.
  • saying Islam is an Arab religion; prayers five times a day are unnecessary; and the Qur'an is full of lies (Indonesia).
  • believing in transmigration of the soul or reincarnation or disbelieving in the afterlife (Indonesia).[211]
  • expressing an atheist or a secular point of view or publishing or distributing such a point of view.
  • using words that Muslims use because the individuals were not Muslims (Malaysia).
  • praying that Muslims become something else (Indonesia).
  • finding amusement in Islamic customs (Bangladesh).
  • publishing an unofficial translation of the Qur'an (Afghanistan).
  • practicing yoga (Malaysia).
  • insulting religious scholarship.
  • wearing the clothing of Jews or of Zoroastrians.
  • claiming that forbidden acts are not forbidden.
  • uttering "words of infidelity" (sayings that are forbidden).
  • participating in non-Islamic religious festivals.
Blasphemy against artifacts
  • touching a Qur'an or touching something that has touched a Qur'an because the individuals were not Muslim (Nigeria).
  • spitting at the wall of a mosque (Pakistan).
Islam and blasphemy - Wikipedia
 
Likes: Futurist

Devdas

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
4,149
India
#22
Quran instructs us not to insult your numerous gods of Hinduism ;

"And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah, lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do. [6:108] Surah Al-An'am [6:108]
He is not a Hindu by the way.
 
Likes: Azad67

Devdas

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
4,149
India
#23
I know over ten good Pakistani Americans. Across the USA are Pakistani and Indian college students studying to become doctors and engineers.

I had a childhood friend whom was Pakistani American. His name was Abbas. There is a large population in Pakistan that follows cricket, is into good wine and food...just one of many facts that show us Pakistani people in general are tolerant people that have similar hobbies as those in Canada and the USA. And these experiences are had all over the USA and Europe where Pakistani people get along great with Americans and Europeans..

Pakistan has a noted film industry, you probably know this. Surely you can see that Pakistani people are not all herded off to"madrasses " to learn to hate. Even in the USA we have religious supremacy, even the spiritual advisor to the POTUS has spoken very ill about minority religions, thats similar to those few bigoted Muslim Imans in Pakistan providing their views to the congregants. Pakistan is home to many good people so its standing internationally is similar to that of a # of Christian majority Southern American nations which also face economic issues and corruption.

Pakistan has issues, so do South American Christian majority countries have similar issues of corruption and poverty. Religion is not the issue perhaps you can agree with the last point. I agree that the Pakistani gov has work to do, but so does the Indian gov and various gov of South America have work to do to improve the lives of their people.
America may have a right wing but their country's foundation is on secular principles. You can't even compare America's liberal secular values to that of Pakistan's foundation based two nation's theory(Muslims and Hindus/Sikhs) can't live together, a common Muslim identity and staunch hate for Hindus in particular define their identity as a Pakistan. Particularly they think they are at war with Hindus/Indians ever since Muhammad bin Qasim annexed Sindh in 712AD. My my mother tongue is Hindi which is mutually intelligible to Pakistan's national Language Urdu and its not difficult to understand what kind of hate things they talk about Hindus, Christians and Jews openly on TV, these are just the outcomes of decades of grooming of 2-3 generations of Pakistan in the name of creating a stronger Pakistani identity. Infact, current generation of Pakistanis far more intolerant compared to the generation that lived in 1950s. Hatred for minorities is deeply rooted among the politicians and army. Such type of views are centuries behind the secular views practiced Europe and America.
 
Jun 2016
1,665
England, 200 yards from Wales
#24
Islam is not to blame for Pakistani gov intolerance. .
If by 'gov' you mean the Pakistani government, surely it is the Pakistani legal system that found her innocent and the government that is now protecting her from mobs stirred up by some mullahs?
Great credit to the judges, and to the government (though I did read that they have given in to the fanatics to the extent of not letting her leave the country, I've not seen news on this very recently though).
 
Dec 2015
3,359
USA
#25
If by 'gov' you mean the Pakistani government, surely it is the Pakistani legal system that found her innocent and the government that is now protecting her from mobs stirred up by some mullahs?
Great credit to the judges, and to the government (though I did read that they have given in to the fanatics to the extent of not letting her leave the country, I've not seen news on this very recently though).
A broken clock is right twice a day.

It is good to see progress in Pakistan, but the Pakistani Americans I know will tell you there is more work to be done to improve the situation in Pakistan.

The Pakistani gov still blocks interfaith marriage, as do states like Saudi and Israel... In addition the Pakistani gov needs to improve workers rights and education in Pakistan. Pakistan does not have a 10 $ USD min wage, good work can be hard to find in Pakistan where poverty runs rampant.
 
Likes: Futurist
Jun 2016
1,665
England, 200 yards from Wales
#26
A broken clock is right twice a day.

It is good to see progress in Pakistan, but the Pakistani Americans I know will tell you there is more work to be done to improve the situation in Pakistan.

The Pakistani gov still blocks interfaith marriage, as do states like Saudi and Israel... In addition the Pakistani gov needs to improve workers rights and education in Pakistan. Pakistan does not have a 10 $ USD min wage, good work can be hard to find in Pakistan where poverty runs rampant.
I accept what you say, but I was referring to this particular 'blasphemy' case, because you said about it "Islam is not to blame for Pakistani gov intolerance".
There may be government intolerance (eg in the interfaith marriage thing), but in this case the government is resisting the intolerance of mobs inspired by Islamic clerics is it not?
 
Dec 2015
3,359
USA
#27
I accept what you say, but I was referring to this particular 'blasphemy' case, because you said about it "Islam is not to blame for Pakistani gov intolerance".
There may be government intolerance (eg in the interfaith marriage thing), but in this case the government is resisting the intolerance of mobs inspired by Islamic clerics is it not?
Yes the Pakistani Clerics whom try and inspire violence and division should be brought to justice...Many including myself would include in this discussion on that Islam does not support the type of intolerance that is promoted by bigoted Pakistani Imams or Clerics. Throughout human history, Atheists and Theists have committed crimes...in Pakistan today what we see is a continuation of a form of supremacy due to in this case religious bigotry that is promoted by to many intolerant Pakistani Clerics. But enough good Pakistani Imams and Clerics exist to show us Islam is a peaceful religion as practiced by its followers.
 
Dec 2015
3,359
USA
#28
America may have a right wing but their country's foundation is on secular principles. You can't even compare America's liberal secular values to that of Pakistan's foundation based two nation's theory(Muslims and Hindus/Sikhs) can't live together, a common Muslim identity and staunch hate for Hindus in particular define their identity as a Pakistan. Particularly they think they are at war with Hindus/Indians ever since Muhammad bin Qasim annexed Sindh in 712AD. My my mother tongue is Hindi which is mutually intelligible to Pakistan's national Language Urdu and its not difficult to understand what kind of hate things they talk about Hindus, Christians and Jews openly on TV, these are just the outcomes of decades of grooming of 2-3 generations of Pakistan in the name of creating a stronger Pakistani identity. Infact, current generation of Pakistanis far more intolerant compared to the generation that lived in 1950s. Hatred for minorities is deeply rooted among the politicians and army. Such type of views are centuries behind the secular views practiced Europe and America.
Yes the foundation of Pakistan and the USA differs. There are differences among the laws of Pakistan and the USA.

You surely know that Pakistani people in general are nice people, right? I have Urdu speaking friends whom are Muslims, they are dignified people. If Pakistan was so backward, it would not have super stadiums for Cricket and it would certainly not have one of the best Cricket teams in the world. The Pakistani Cricket National team would give up all matches against Christian England due to the Holy Cross on the very Flag of England. But nay, Christians are welcomed in Pakistan as guests often. The Pakistani Army , Police, Firefighters of course includes good hardworking honest people. The Pakistani gov may have issues to resolve similar to issues facing other countries such as Iran and India, these are countries home to great history but also widespread poverty.

Its not religion that is the issue in Pakistan..the foundations of Turkey and Saudi Arabia are proof that Islam does not inhibit freedom(Turkey) and economic prosperity(Turkey and Saudi but more so Saudi).

Pakistan can improve but there is work to be done. Pakistan has the history, the natural resources and intelligent minds to become great.
 
Jun 2016
1,665
England, 200 yards from Wales
#29
Yes the Pakistani Clerics whom try and inspire violence and division should be brought to justice...Many including myself would include in this discussion on that Islam does not support the type of intolerance that is promoted by bigoted Pakistani Imams or Clerics. Throughout human history, Atheists and Theists have committed crimes...in Pakistan today what we see is a continuation of a form of supremacy due to in this case religious bigotry that is promoted by to many intolerant Pakistani Clerics. But enough good Pakistani Imams and Clerics exist to show us Islam is a peaceful religion as practiced by its followers.
I was certainly not trying to characterise all Pakistani people, or all Pakistani Muslims, as intolerant, I have talked with Pakistani people via comments on Cricket websites enough to know that they are quite normal people with normal interests.
Clearly all of Islam is not a peaceful religion if there are many intolerant clerics inciting murder - they are part of Islam.
Saying that certainly does not deny the presence of the good ones, like all human movements Islam is a mixture of good and bad, so the bald statement that " Islam is a peaceful religion" is misleading, even if much, or most, of it is.
One can prove any movement is good and tolerant if you define all elements of it that aren't as not really part of it.
 
Likes: Futurist
Dec 2015
3,359
USA
#30
I was certainly not trying to characterise all Pakistani people, or all Pakistani Muslims, as intolerant, I have talked with Pakistani people via comments on Cricket websites enough to know that they are quite normal people with normal interests.
Clearly all of Islam is not a peaceful religion if there are many intolerant clerics inciting murder - they are part of Islam.
Saying that certainly does not deny the presence of the good ones, like all human movements Islam is a mixture of good and bad, so the bald statement that " Islam is a peaceful religion" is misleading, even if much, or most, of it is.
One can prove any movement is good and tolerant if you define all elements of it that aren't as not really part of it.
Yes I felt that you were not critical of Pakistani people in general. Where we may disagree is the point about Islam.

Its not misleading for a peaceful Muslim to say Islam is a religion of peace.

OTOH I would argue that the Muslims from ISIL and AQ are misleading.. The Muslims from ISIL or AQ writes about how the so called west has damaged the people of the middle east and Islam is the savior, that evil Americans drop bombs on innocent Muslims...Yet most of the Muslims of the world and most non Muslims of the world view the AQ and ISIL type Muslim as being violent and just wrong about their interpretation of Islam. We know that most Muslims of the middle east are good people, you will see Lebron James jersies all over Iraq, Afganistan and Syria for example. American people and American culture are admired all throughout the middle east but ISIL and AQ dont like to talk about that.

Either Islam is a good religion, or it is a bad religion. That is the way we should look at this. Take this whole viewpoint that religion can be "extreme" or "radical". Note how some folks say we have moderate Muslims and extremist Muslims.. Yet history shows us that only in the 21st century have some so called scholars attempted to differentiate between moderate and extremist from various religions of the world not only Islam.

Its better for folk to be for or against Islam...because saying a part of Islam or a part of any religion is violent would mean the religion in question, not a part of it, but the religion in question is violent. So I disagree that a religion can be partially violent , either a religion is peaceful or it is not and I submit Islam to clearly be a religion of peace... Now this last point is merely my opinion, along with billions of other humans whom likewise respect all religions of the world.

In our world religion means everything for many people. So a religious movement like Islam or Hinduism is often viewed as more then a human movement but something that God has ordained.