Patriarchy in Western Civilization

Sep 2014
983
Texas
It has pretty much become a mantra that western civilization was (and some claim still is) "patriarchal" (men control society and call the shots) and unfair to women in a variety of ways.

However if we take this view, how do we explain the following:

1- Why did only men (apart from rare exceptions) had to fight and die in wars until very recent times

2- Why is divorce so complicated for men, and why do women (especially in the US) get so much in case of divorce (e.g. : the Bezos divorce)

3- Why the "women and children first" (e.g. the Titanic) motto.. Note than in this motto women come even before children

The 3 above points (and these are not the only ones) are clearly unfavorable to men. Why would a patriarchy come up with such rules ?
Pushing the argument, why were women simply not turned into sex slaves/domestic help with no rights whatsoever ?

I'm an old broad who despises the Woke culture.If women were really the equal to men....and some are...they wouldn't need other men to protect them. They wouldn't be enacting laws to control men while letting women act like fools. I was in the Navy and I was never sexually harassed because I didn't let anyone get away with trying it. If you refuse to take crap no one will try to dish it out more than once. And the women of the West are lucky that our men respect us....want to live the rest of your life like this.1574177527602.png. Bet she has no aspirations to be an astronaut.
Hey how about sitting on the floor because if you sat in a chair the devil might invade your body? Or being stoned to death for adultry by your husband who wants a new wife but he can't afford two.

Here's to the men in the West. Some of us LOVE YOU!1574177773306.png
 

VHS

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
4,733
Florania
I'm an old broad who despises the Woke culture.If women were really the equal to men....and some are...they wouldn't need other men to protect them. They wouldn't be enacting laws to control men while letting women act like fools. I was in the Navy and I was never sexually harassed because I didn't let anyone get away with trying it. If you refuse to take crap no one will try to dish it out more than once. And the women of the West are lucky that our men respect us....want to live the rest of your life like this.View attachment 24793. Bet she has no aspirations to be an astronaut.
Hey how about sitting on the floor because if you sat in a chair the devil might invade your body? Or being stoned to death for adultry by your husband who wants a new wife but he can't afford two.

Here's to the men in the West. Some of us LOVE YOU!View attachment 24794
Vandana Shiva talks about the feminine principle, what does she mean in your opinion?
 

Ichon

Ad Honorem
Mar 2013
3,724
Why are women insisting on marriage then, when men are mostly trying to avoid it ?
??? What is the evidence for that? In the most patriarchal cultures, it is the men who insist most strenuously on marriage, not the women.
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
14,030
??? What is the evidence for that? In the most patriarchal cultures, it is the men who insist most strenuously on marriage, not the women.
We are talking about western culture.... If the anecdotal evidence of just about every romantic comedy ever made and the vast majority of novels ever written is not enough, all the social codes in society are geared towards an OBLIGATION for the men to make marriage proposals whilst men try strenuously to avoid it.....

You are confusing patriarchy with the concept of sex being severely restricted in some societies... in those societies men have no other way to have access to sex than to marry....
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
14,030
Okay, but you are saying that women initiate divorce because it favours them, and you are saying that because they initiate divorce it favours them. That's circular logic. Furthermore, you are saying that because this is the case TODAY it must have ALWAYS been the case. How do you then explain the fact that the divorce rates only started rising when women started getting rights? That is to say, after the early 1900's. I think you've been reading too many incles sites (as your golddigger comment suggests). There's plenty of information out there if you actually want to find out the reasons and history.
Nope.... I am saying that divorce favours women, and one piece of evidence for that is the fact that women initiate divorce way more often than men...

Divorce rates did not "only start rising when women got rights" .... there were other things happening, such as prosperity


The divorce rate rose unevenly but substantially from 1900 to about 1967, when the introduction of no-fault divorce led to a doubling of the rate during the subsequent decade to a level that was sustained through the closing years of the century.
 
May 2017
222
Monterrey
Nope.... I am saying that divorce favours women, and one piece of evidence for that is the fact that women initiate divorce way more often than men...
But that's not a piece of evidence, that's just circular logic. How does women initiating divorce more often than men mean that divorce favours women? Explain your logic. And furthemore, since this is the case only recently you therefore agree that for 1900 years of the past 2000 years it favoured men?
 

Ichon

Ad Honorem
Mar 2013
3,724
We are talking about western culture.... If the anecdotal evidence of just about every romantic comedy ever made and the vast majority of novels ever written is not enough, all the social codes in society are geared towards an OBLIGATION for the men to make marriage proposals whilst men try strenuously to avoid it.....

You are confusing patriarchy with the concept of sex being severely restricted in some societies... in those societies men have no other way to have access to sex than to marry....
Since most of marriage history the man was nearly literally buying the woman from her family the fact that the pressure is on men to propose is just a cultural artefact that will fade as women's earning power is sustained thru a couple generations. There is some interesting evidence on the long term effects of birth control on women's ideas about security/relationships but that only touches secondarily on marriage.

Anecdotally I know several marriages where it was the woman who proposed but most often in my social circle marriage is rather mutually agreed upon. I can only think of a single couple where the man actually surprised the woman with a proposal and they are fairly religious so in all honesty I think it was about needing marriage for sex to be permissible.

You haven't yet answered why you think men are taking a bigger risk than women going into a marriage. There are so many studies showing women are happier after a marriage has ended compared to men and as I already noted women get married during their most desirable years and while men have a much longer window of time to have children. It seems you are only very narrowly defining the benefits of marriage to a few years of monetary compensation. If that was all that men got out of it there would be far more men only seeking prostitutes. Most men are happier in a household with a woman. The converse is not true.
 
Last edited:
Aug 2019
571
North
It has pretty much become a mantra that western civilization was (and some claim still is) "patriarchal" (men control society and call the shots) and unfair to women in a variety of ways.

However if we take this view, how do we explain the following:

1- Why did only men (apart from rare exceptions) had to fight and die in wars until very recent times

2- Why is divorce so complicated for men, and why do women (especially in the US) get so much in case of divorce (e.g. : the Bezos divorce)

3- Why the "women and children first" (e.g. the Titanic) motto.. Note than in this motto women come even before children

The 3 above points (and these are not the only ones) are clearly unfavorable to men. Why would a patriarchy come up with such rules ?
Pushing the argument, why were women simply not turned into sex slaves/domestic help with no rights whatsoever ?

I think the modern type of patriarchate has much to do with the medieval notion of the "fair lady /damsel in distress" and the "chivalrous knight".
As for the "women and children first", don't forget that some of those children would be young enough to still depend on their mothers.
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
14,030
But that's not a piece of evidence, that's just circular logic. How does women initiating divorce more often than men mean that divorce favours women? Explain your logic. And furthemore, since this is the case only recently you therefore agree that for 1900 years of the past 2000 years it favoured men?
I really do not see HOW it is "circular logic"..... You are aware that humans generally do something when it is favorable to them, and dont do it if it is not.... (granted there are a few exceptions)... I really do not understand why you keep challenging something that is so self evident

we cannot however make historical comparisons, (before 1900) because previously divorce was either impossible or extremely difficult... it is only in the 20th century that it became widespread....... also before the 20th century the overwhelming majority of the population barely survived, there was not much to be gained in a divorce (getting half your husband assets when his assets are 0 is not a great deal, nor an incentive)