Patton’s generalship?

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
5,257
Sydney
@ redcoat , when I wrote that Monty used " soviet style " attacks during the racecourses operations , I was not dismissing him

He did what he had to do with what he had , being hemmed in a small bridgehead , there wasn't much choice in the circumstances
it had to be frontal , massive and sustained , the other choice was nibbling at the German defense but this could have taken a very long time
and given the German some freedom of choices.
While there is some consensus about his character being abrasive , he was certainly a competent general who didn't throw away lives gladly
but would if it was necessary .
during the Ardennes offensive he ordered the scratch units composed largely of shattered units who had held the panzers at St With to withdrawn
other( US ) generals though they should be left to fight and gain some more time
Monty thought they had done brilliantly under very arduous conditions and deserved a chance to stay alive
 

redcoat

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,865
Stockport Cheshire UK
Which exact Axis forces in Sicily in 1943 were preventing the Suez from opening? Which fleet? Which air fleet?
Allied Shipping using the Suez canal on route to India had to travel passed Sicily and Italy, close to the Italian navy and the German and Italian air fleets based in Sicily and Southern Italy
 

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,813
USA
Allied Shipping using the Suez canal on route to India had to travel passed Sicily and Italy, close to the Italian navy and the German and Italian air fleets based in Sicily and Southern Italy
Which air fleets had not been interdicted by spring 43 that necessitated an invasion to deal with? Which ships?
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
5,257
Sydney
taking Sicily could be justified easily , landing on the Italian mainland was not really so important as a military objective

however the political probability of knocking Mussolini out was just too good to resist ,
there were very advanced discussion with top Italians generals on the terms of surrender with Italy switching side
there was a real chance of the Germans retreating all the way North to the Alps , which would have been excellent

Hitler cared not about Italy sovereignty and decided to fight all the way ,
in a way , the allied were trapped in a success of their own making

it sounded good in the newsreels , demonstrated to the Soviets that something was being done and gave battle experience to the Yanks ( who needed it )
Italy turned out to become a strategic impediment
until Roosevelt made it clear , in late 43 , that he cared not about it and stripped the theater of troops and resources
against the stubborn efforts of Churchill to sabotage the Normandy landing with his "Mediterranean" strategy and playing footsy with the Turks for zero results
 

Lord Fairfax

Ad Honorem
Jan 2015
3,427
Changing trains at Terrapin Station...
Which exact Axis forces in Sicily in 1943 were preventing the Suez from opening? Which fleet? Which air fleet?
The Suez itself was obviously open, however with the Axis in control of Sicily, the large force of Axis subs and aircraft posed an unacceptable risk to Allied shipping transiting the Med, especially following one of the heaviest monthly cargo ship loss totals in Mar 1943.

Which exact Axis forces?

The Italians had at least 46 subs, 12 were sunk from June 43 to early August, and 34 surrendered after the Italian armictice.
Germany had about two dozen U-boats in the Med.

Luftlotte 2 is based in Southern Italy, consisting of Fleigerkorps 2 and 10, among others.
 
Apr 2014
406
Istanbul Turkey
The Suez itself was obviously open, however with the Axis in control of Sicily, the large force of Axis subs and aircraft posed an unacceptable risk to Allied shipping transiting the Med, especially following one of the heaviest monthly cargo ship loss totals in Mar 1943.

Which exact Axis forces?

The Italians had at least 46 subs, 12 were sunk from June 43 to early August, and 34 surrendered after the Italian armictice.
Germany had about two dozen U-boats in the Med.

Luftlotte 2 is based in Southern Italy, consisting of Fleigerkorps 2 and 10, among others.

In addition Italiam Navy or Air Foce could always sortie or go on merchant raiding in Mediterraean as long as Pantelleria , Sicily , Naples and Taranto bases were at service of Axis and I am not adding the main Luftwaffe base at Otronto. Mind you Italian Navy and Air Force stocked (by reserving from previous year) quite a bit fuel in 1943 and began to perform much better than expected in 1942-1943 winter. Their sorties in 1943 July and 1943 September to surrender in Malta proves that.
 
Nov 2014
1,669
Birmingham, UK
I'm sure I read that the Italian fleet when it sailed out to surrender was using its very last fuel reserves, I'll have to find the quote later if I can
 

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,813
USA
Elaborate. That assertion sounds like a...conspiracy theory.
It is. There has been a conspiracy theory surrounding Patton's death since it happened, with nothing substantiating it. It was made mainstream recently when Bill Reilly, the ex political pundit, who writes books titled "Killing ______" that describe the deaths of famous people, wrote one, "Killing Patton."

The story is Patton, an army commander, one of many, was actively suggesting we attack the Soviet Union, and they killed him to shut him up. Because apparently relieving and sending away isn't a possibility, even though Ike and Bradley both relieved scores of generals previously, to include Patton as well...
 
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Nemowork

Ad Honorem
Jan 2011
8,480
South of the barcodes
I doubt Bill O'Reilly ever even read that book, never mind wrote it

Martin Dugard is O'Reillys favoured ghost writer, his reputation is so low that even at the height of O'Reillys popularity the Lincoln library insisted Killing Lincoln was stocked on their fiction shelves not in the history section.
 

Zip

Jan 2018
592
Comancheria
O'Reilly is a bully and a lout. I bet if I slapped him he'd cry. He's a disgrace to his name and the race it came from.