Paul von Hindenburg lives until 1950

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
3,560
Las Vegas, NV USA
Fair enough.

I do think that it's possible that Hindenburg would have intervened in such a scenario just like the Italian King and Mussolini's minions on the Fascist Grand Council could have removed him from power had he declared war on Britain and France in September 1939.
Interesting. Did the Fascist Grand Council have that power? It would mean Mussolini was less than an absolute dictator. I don't think that was the case in 1939. I think Mussolini was waiting to see how the war evolved. When it was clear France was defeated, he invaded and took a tiny piece of the French Riviera. In any case there was nothing corresponding to the FGC in Germany.

The Weimar Constitution gave the President the power approve and dismiss a government. However the Enabling Act essentially took that power away. There was only one party and one leader. If he did dare try to interfere , how would he do it? He had no levers to pull. If Hitler did find the President troublesome he could simply have a nurse apply a pillow to his face and solemnly announce the revered President died in his sleep.:crying:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Futurist

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
22,239
SoCal
Interesting. Did the Fascist Grand Council have that power? It would mean Mussolini was less than an absolute dictator. I don't think that was the case in 1939. I think Mussolini was waiting to see how the war evolved. When it was clear France was defeated, he invaded and took a tiny piece of the French Riviera. In any case there was nothing corresponding to the FGC in Germany.
Yeah, AFAIK, the Fascist Grand Council did have that power in Italy. It was stacked by Mussolini's cronies, but even so, once they saw that things really began going south for Italy, they were willing to remove him.

As for Germany, had it kept a Kaiser after 1918, it could have had someone to dismiss Hitler. However, I don't think that this would have ended the war since the Allies would have probably perceived such a move as simply being an attempt by the German Kaiser to save his own skin. I'm not sure about this, but I've previously heard and/or read that there was a belief among the Allies that the Nazis were, to a large extent, merely tools of Prussian militarism--albeit tools that got a bit out of hand with their rabid anti-Semitism and totalitarianism.

The Weimar Constitution gave the President the power approve and dismiss a government. However the Enabling Act essentially took that power away. There was only one party and one leader. If he did dare try to interfere , how would he do it? He had no levers to pull. If Hitler did find the President troublesome he could simply have a nurse apply a pillow to his face and solemnly announce the revered President died in his sleep.:crying:
Yeah, Hitler could certainly try murdering Hindenburg if he felt that he could get away with it. Still, if Hindenburg was able to make his wishes known to the German military immediately, they'd have probably agreed to remove Hitler and side with him. AFAIK, the loyalty oath that the German military gave to Hitler only occurred after Hindenburg's death.
 
  • Like
Reactions: stevev

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
3,560
Las Vegas, NV USA
Yeah, Hitler could certainly try murdering Hindenburg if he felt that he could get away with it. Still, if Hindenburg was able to make his wishes known to the German military immediately, they'd have probably agreed to remove Hitler and side with him. AFAIK, the loyalty oath that the German military gave to Hitler only occurred after Hindenburg's death.
That's a good point. I didn't think of that angle. The President was in a way the substitute for a monarch and symbolically represented the State. In the UK the military pledges to the Crown, not the government. In the US loyalty is pledged to the USA itself and its constitution.

"I... swear by Almighty God (do solemnly, and truly declare and affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will, as in duty bound, honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, in Person, Crown and Dignity ..."

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States... and the orders of the officers appointed ..."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Futurist

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
22,239
SoCal
That's a good point. I didn't think of that angle. The President was in a way the substitute for a monarch and symbolically represented the State. In the UK the military pledges to the Crown, not the government. In the US loyalty is pledged to the USA itself and its constitution.

"I... swear by Almighty God (do solemnly, and truly declare and affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will, as in duty bound, honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, in Person, Crown and Dignity ..."

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States... and the orders of the officers appointed ..."
Yeah, as long as Hindenburg will remain alive, even a senile Hindenburg won't allow the German military to swear an oath of loyalty to Hitler.

In turn, this raises an interesting question--might Hindenburg want to make some sort of deal with Britain and France either during the Sudetenland Crisis in 1938 or during the Polish Crisis in 1939? Specifically, I'm thinking of having Britain and France agree to make certain concessions to Germany in exchange for Hindenburg firing Hitler and subsequently steering Germany towards a more peaceful course in regards to foreign policy.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,634
I really hope that pugsville responds to this thread.
I assume the OP proposition includes he remains somewhat alert mentally, By the 1933 Hindenburg was from some accounts quite senile.

once Hitler assumed the Chancellorship access to Hindenburg was tightly controlled.

Any real opposition to Hitler would have most likely lead to assassination and some red scape goat would have been found like the Reich-stag fire.

Hitler was willingly to do anything. An isolated Old Man with no real allies or protection, the rule of law, the constitution, morality meant nothing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Futurist