Plausibility Check: The Germanization of Eastern European Jews en masse after a Central Powers WWI victory?

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
Would the same have also been true for Eastern European Jews, though? Would they have become Germanized (as per your second definition here)?
Difficult to say.

IMHO opinion, it depends mostly on the country.

Jews in Hungary integrated rather the Hungarian nation and culture, not the German one (tho Germans were extremely present, and since long in Hungary).

I am tempted to say that it would have followed the usual pattern: integrating the nation and culture of the State. Russia/Russian, Romania/Romanian, Bulgaria/Bulgarian, aso and keeping their own identity in parallel. I don't see a plausible reason to "germanize" in a non-German State. The closeness of Idish to German isn't a sufficient reason. Kletzmer music has nothing to do with German music, but a lot with Eastern music, for example. But didn't made Jews Hungarian, Romanian, Gypsies, did it?
 
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Futurist

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May 2014
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Difficult to say.

IMHO opinion, it depends mostly on the country.

Jews in Hungary integrated rather the Hungarian nation and culture, not the German one (tho Germans were extremely present, and since long in Hungary).

I am tempted to say that it would have followed the usual pattern: integrating the nation and culture of the State. Russia/Russian, Romania/Romanian, Bulgaria/Bulgarian, aso and keeping their own identity in parallel. I don't see a plausible reason to "germanize" in a non-German State. The closeness of Idish to German isn't a sufficient reason. Kletzmer music has nothing to do with German music, but a lot with Eastern music, for example.
You're forgetting the fact that Eastern European countries other than perhaps Austria-Hungary are going to be German puppet states after a German WWI victory. In this regard, they could perhaps be compared to Algeria (though Algeria was directly annexed to France)--where the Jews integrated into the pied-noir population instead of into the Arab and Berber populations.

But didn't made Jews Hungarian, Romanian, Gypsies, did it?
No, it didn't.
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
You're forgetting the fact that Eastern European countries other than perhaps Austria-Hungary are going to be German puppet states after a German WWI victory. In this regard, they could perhaps be compared to Algeria (though Algeria was directly annexed to France)--where the Jews integrated into the pied-noir population instead of into the Arab and Berber populations.
I don't believe the comparison with French Algeria can go that far.

I can't reasonably imagine East European puppet states Germanized as Algeria was Franchised.

For decades, those states were Soviet puppet states, they still weren't russified. Even those in the URSS (Lituania, Letonia, Estonia, Moldavia) weren't fully russified. And Your scenario isn't suggesting that Germany would be harsher than URSS (I think).
 
Apr 2019
171
Europe
"well-established and ingrained in your average German's psyche", "Germans were already fanatical in 1914" -

These are ridiculous generlaizations, there were anti-Semitic currents in Germany while many others disapproved of such attitudes, and Jews were able to integrate very well into German society prior to the Nazi era. Those anti-Semitic currents were actually no stronger than in France, which provides a good basis for comparison.
I did not necessarily mean that they were fanatical Anti-Semites already in 1914. Just fanatical in general (and enthusiastic about the prospect of a World War). I guess it may be part of German nature (and likely quite deeply ingrained) to be fanatical about something. They know no moderation. Their elites tend to be pretty unstable psychologically, and the masses tend to blindly follow these unstable elites, because of how much respect they have for authority in their culture - any authority, even bad and unreasonable. For example, right now Germans are fanatical Social Justice Warriors. But in few decades from now anything can happen. In one moment they say "Refugees Welcome!", in another moment they say "Refugees - Raus!". They seem to be an unpredictable and unstable nation, just like those authors described in their books. The belief in their own superiority is pretty constant though, only the reasoning behind it changes. Back in 1914 they claimed superiority for cultural reasons. In the 1930s they claimed superiority for racial reasons. Right now, they claim superiority because of how progressive and open-minded they are. However, next decade or two, they will claim it for a yet another reason.

Aren't these some of the reasons why Nietzsche disliked Germans? He understood their nature very well as a great philosopher and German himself (albeit self-hating one).

NordicDemosthenes said:
how different was Prussian anti-semitism from their aversion to Catholics for example?
Catholics are just a religion, while Jews are an ethnic group of mixed Middle Eastern and South European origin. Nothing Germanic about them, and Germans understood it.

I mean Yiddish is a Germanic language, but the origin of its speakers is not Germanic. I think for the Germans blood was quite important. Even when they wanted to Germanize some Slavic groups, they usually made propaganda claims about Germanic origin of these Slavs - they claimed that those groups were some Slavicized descendants of Ancient East Germanic tribes.

Claiming Ostjuden as descendants of East Germanic tribes was never suggested. If anything, some claimed that they were not of Middle Eastern but of Turkic Khazar origin.
 
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Apr 2019
171
Europe
I mean you really have to ask yourself: why didn't Nazism rise in Hungary? Why didn't Nazism rise in Turkey?

Those were also nations that lost World War 1 and their sufferings due to the war were just as bad, if not worse.

There is something special about Germany that makes radical ideologies originate there. Marxism & Communism too.
 
Apr 2019
171
Europe
the Jews integrated into the pied-noir population instead of into the Arab and Berber populations.
But in modern 21st century Germany, the Jews generally integrate only into this part of the population, which opposes German nationalists and supporters of ethnically German state. For example there is this Jewish German politician Gregor Gysi, who claims it is good for Germany that ethnic Germans are having low birthrates because it will make Germany less Nazi and more multicultural.

Perhaps the Jews always support the "mainstream", those currently in power, and thus if those in power change, Jewish loyalties also change. I don't really blame them because when you are a Diaspora minority that's a good strategy to survive turmoils. But it just shows that Jews generally do not associate themselves with aspirations of their "host nations" (especially with their nationalists).

What makes you think that Jews would suddenly become ardent ethnic German patriots/nationalists and supporters of an ethnically German Greater Germany?

I think even very Germanized Jews would indeed be integrated, but not really assimilated. They would still consider themselves Jews rather than Germanic ethnic Germans.

Just like Americanized Jews today are still aware of their Jewishness and generally represent Jewish-American (and Israeli) interests 1st, Gentile-American interests only 2nd.

Do you know for example that in 2016 presidential election Jewish-Americans were the most pro-Clinton group, and German-Americans were the most pro-Trump group? This shows that Jewish-Americans and German-Americans are polar opposites on the political spectrum. What makes you think that in Greater Germany Jews would agree on politics with ethnic German majority, instead?

I think even your own posts in this thread show, that you only want to be Americanized because the U.S. is a great country, and for the same reason you would like to be Germanized in your own alternative history scenario. But what if the USA declines and Canada or Mexico (or China, or Russia - you name it) conquer it and become great countries? In such case, your national and ethnic loyalty would immediately change to Canadian/Mexican, you would claim that you want to be Canadianized, and you would start looking down at Gentile White Americans, descendants by blood of first Jamestown settlers.

I think it shows that Jews would never actually become ethnic Germans - they would only support Germany as long as Germany was successful. It is opportunism, not true assimilation.

A true love (patriotism = love of homeland) is when you love someone or something in both fortune AND in misfortune. You can call them stupid, but Germans did defend Hitler until the last drop of blood. That is real patriotism. Let's assume your Germanized Jews are confronted with a war - and things don't go well for Germany - would they fight to the end like ethnic Germans did in 1945?

If there was a war between Israel and the USA, which side would American Jews support?
 
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Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,214
Welsh Marches
I did not necessarily mean that they were fanatical Anti-Semites already in 1914. Just fanatical in general (and enthusiastic about the prospect of a World War). I guess it may be part of German nature (and likely quite deeply ingrained) to be fanatical about something. They know no moderation. Their elites tend to be pretty unstable psychologically, and the masses tend to blindly follow these unstable elites, because of how much respect they have for authority in their culture - any authority, even bad and unreasonable. For example, right now Germans are fanatical Social Justice Warriors. But in few decades from now anything can happen. In one moment they say "Refugees Welcome!", in another moment they say "Refugees - Raus!". They seem to be an unpredictable and unstable nation, just like those authors described in their books. The belief in their own superiority is pretty constant though, only the reasoning behind it changes. Back in 1914 they claimed superiority for cultural reasons. In the 1930s they claimed superiority for racial reasons. Right now, they claim superiority because of how progressive and open-minded they are. However, next decade or two, they will claim it for a yet another reason.

Aren't these some of the reasons why Nietzsche disliked Germans? He understood their nature very well as a great philosopher and German himself (albeit self-hating one).



Catholics are just a religion, while Jews are an ethnic group of mixed Middle Eastern and South European origin. Nothing Germanic about them, and Germans understood it.

I mean Yiddish is a Germanic language, but the origin of its speakers is not Germanic. I think for the Germans blood was quite important. Even when they wanted to Germanize some Slavic groups, they usually made propaganda claims about Germanic origin of these Slavs - they claimed that those groups were some Slavicized descendants of Ancient East Germanic tribes.

Claiming Ostjuden as descendants of East Germanic tribes was never suggested. If anything, some claimed that they were not of Middle Eastern but of Turkic Khazar origin.
This just shows the dangers of viewing a people from a distance from a partial viewpoint with very little historical perspective. Germany was not even a unified nation until 1871, and such generalizations tend to be based on the history of Germany since thta time, which was marked by many historical contingencies (the German state would have been very different if it had been unified under a liberal constitution with the educated middle classes as a dominant force, as might have seemed in prospect in 1848, rather than under Prussian leadership with a militaristic emphasis. Germans are not all the same, there is immense regional variation, Bavarians are very different from Prussians, and the charactersitic orderliness of German society has had very good sides as well as bad sides, the Germans are simply not people who are constantly close to hysteria looking for authority figures. Right now Germans are not 'fanatical SJWs' or fanatical anything else, educated Germans (and they tend to be well-educated) are well-mannered and liberal-minded on the whole, and travelling in Germany is usually a pleasure. All these generalizations based on a limited range of books books relating to the Nazi or Wilhelmine era are pretty meaningless in the extreme richness and the varied nature of German culture. It is like saying that the English are all cold and arrogant, or that America is a violent and vulgarly materialistic society in which everyone is obssessed with guns.
 
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Isleifson

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
4,074
Lorraine tudesque
I did not necessarily mean that they were fanatical Anti-Semites already in 1914. Just fanatical in general (and enthusiastic about the prospect of a World War). I guess it may be part of German nature (and likely quite deeply ingrained) to be fanatical about something. They know no moderation. Their elites tend to be pretty unstable psychologically, and the masses tend to blindly follow these unstable elites, because of how much respect they have for authority in their culture - any authority, even bad and unreasonable. For example, right now Germans are fanatical Social Justice Warriors. But in few decades from now anything can happen. In one moment they say "Refugees Welcome!", in another moment they say "Refugees - Raus!". They seem to be an unpredictable and unstable nation, just like those authors described in their books. The belief in their own superiority is pretty constant though, only the reasoning behind it changes. Back in 1914 they claimed superiority for cultural reasons. In the 1930s they claimed superiority for racial reasons. Right now, they claim superiority because of how progressive and open-minded they are. However, next decade or two, they will claim it for a yet another reason.

Aren't these some of the reasons why Nietzsche disliked Germans? He understood their nature very well as a great philosopher and German himself (albeit self-hating one).



Catholics are just a religion, while Jews are an ethnic group of mixed Middle Eastern and South European origin. Nothing Germanic about them, and Germans understood it.

I mean Yiddish is a Germanic language, but the origin of its speakers is not Germanic. I think for the Germans blood was quite important. Even when they wanted to Germanize some Slavic groups, they usually made propaganda claims about Germanic origin of these Slavs - they claimed that those groups were some Slavicized descendants of Ancient East Germanic tribes.

Claiming Ostjuden as descendants of East Germanic tribes was never suggested. If anything, some claimed that they were not of Middle Eastern but of Turkic Khazar origin.
Not bad. This could be written by somebody from Alsace-Lorraine. May I ask where you came from?
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
22,327
SoCal
I don't believe the comparison with French Algeria can go that far.

I can't reasonably imagine East European puppet states Germanized as Algeria was Franchised.
Muslim Algerians never actually became Gallified/Francified, though.

For decades, those states were Soviet puppet states, they still weren't russified. Even those in the URSS (Lituania, Letonia, Estonia, Moldavia) weren't fully russified. And Your scenario isn't suggesting that Germany would be harsher than URSS (I think).
The Soviet Union never made a conscious effort to Russify them, though.