Plausibility Check: The Germanization of Eastern European Jews en masse after a Central Powers WWI victory?

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
18,701
SoCal
#41
But in modern 21st century Germany, the Jews generally integrate only into this part of the population, which opposes German nationalists and supporters of ethnically German state. For example there is this Jewish German politician Gregor Gysi, who claims it is good for Germany that ethnic Germans are having low birthrates because it will make Germany less Nazi and more multicultural.

Perhaps the Jews always support the "mainstream", those currently in power, and thus if those in power change, Jewish loyalties also change. I don't really blame them because when you are a Diaspora minority that's a good strategy to survive turmoils. But it just shows that Jews generally do not associate themselves with aspirations of their "host nations" (especially with their nationalists).
Oh, certainly, there are some Jews who have no problem endorsing multiculturalism for their home countries but not for Israel--something that could trigger anti-Semitism since it opens these Jews up to accusations of hypocrisy and double-standards.

What makes you think that Jews would suddenly become ardent ethnic German patriots/nationalists and supporters of an ethnically German Greater Germany?
FTR, I wasn't talking about having Germany actually annex Eastern Europe. Just transform it into German puppet states.

As for your question here, it would be for the same reason that Algerian Jews became Gallicized; specifically, the French made them privileged along with the pieds-noirs--which in turn created a feeling of loyalty to France and possibly a feeling of superiority over Muslims. I don't know to what extent Algerian Jews are pushing for multiculturalism in France right now, though; after all, France is full of anti-Semitism these days--probably in large part due to the large number of Muslims that it imported over the last several decades.

I think even very Germanized Jews would indeed be integrated, but not really assimilated. They would still consider themselves Jews rather than Germanic ethnic Germans.
It would probably depend on the specific Jews involved.

Just like Americanized Jews today are still aware of their Jewishness and generally represent Jewish-American (and Israeli) interests 1st, Gentile-American interests only 2nd.
Again, it depends on which American Jews we're talking about here. A large number could possibly have dual loyalties--though there are undoubtedly some (including myself) who would certainly put the US first every time. While most US Jews are liberal, there are some conservatives among them--including several Jews who write for the white nationalist website VDare. Indeed, some US Jews want the US to emulate Israel by closing its doors and preserving its White majority--though they're obvious in the minority.

Do you know for example that in 2016 presidential election Jewish-Americans were the most pro-Clinton group, and German-Americans were the most pro-Trump group? This shows that Jewish-Americans and German-Americans are polar opposites on the political spectrum. What makes you think that in Greater Germany Jews would agree on politics with ethnic German majority, instead?
That's a good point. That said, though, do we know how French Jews and British Jews vote nowadays?

I think even your own posts in this thread show, that you only want to be Americanized because the U.S. is a great country, and for the same reason you would like to be Germanized in your own alternative history scenario. But what if the USA declines and Canada or Mexico (or China, or Russia - you name it) conquer it and become great countries? In such case, your national and ethnic loyalty would immediately change to Canadian/Mexican, you would claim that you want to be Canadianized, and you would start looking down at Gentile White Americans, descendants by blood of first Jamestown settlers.
That's not right. Even if the US will significantly decline, I'll still believe in the principles that it stood for and would hope to eventually reinvigorate it. I certainly admire other large, powerful, and prosperous countries, but the US is my home and I will certainly connect more with the US, its history, and its culture than I will with other countries.

Honestly, if I was only looking out for myself, I might have wanted to move to, say, Canada. After all, their social safety net is much more generous than the US one based on what I've heard and read. In spite of the US's flaw in regards to this and various other things, I still believe in the idea of the US.

I think it shows that Jews would never actually become ethnic Germans - they would only support Germany as long as Germany was successful. It is opportunism, not true assimilation.

A true love (patriotism = love of homeland) is when you love someone or something in both fortune AND in misfortune. You can call them stupid, but Germans did defend Hitler until the last drop of blood. That is real patriotism. Let's assume your Germanized Jews are confronted with a war - and things don't go well for Germany - would they fight to the end like ethnic Germans did in 1945?
Germans did rebel in 1918, though.

If there was a war between Israel and the USA, which side would American Jews support?
That would depend on the specific American Jews and also on what exactly would be the cause of this war. That said, though, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if a significant number of US Jews would have experienced conflicted loyalties in regards to this and either tried to avoid fighting at all or would fight on the US side only reluctantly. I do think that few American Jews would actually fight for Israel in such a scenario, though.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
18,701
SoCal
#44
True. Although not to be crass, probably some of the very poorest (i.e. not even enough money to emigrate) Ostjuden died during World War 2.
That's certainly possible. Still, even an average IQ of 105 instead of 110 is very good. :)

Yes, you are right. If both those conditions would have been met I can see assimilation working out. A German WW1 victory might actually lead to that.
Yeah.

Probably, although it could be argued that the British especially the previous generations of British had little to no interest to allowing such a big Germany come into being in the first place, even if that Germany would become a status quo power as you suggest I am not sure the British would just sit there and accept it. Perhaps they would though, if they are defeated in WW1...
Yeah, if Britain is severely bled dry in WWI, then I don't think that they are going to be very eager for a rematch--especially if the point of this rematch is merely to help Russia recover its lost territory.

Also, FTR, Eastern Europe won't be directly annexed to Germany but will be transformed into German puppet states. Directly annexing all of that territory is going to create a huge Slavic demographic threat to Germany.

Another thing I've been thinking of: Do you think the Germans would have won, or at least secured a white peace with the West where they control the territories they won at Brest-Litovsk without US intervention in World War 1?
Very possible, in my honest opinion. After all, the US entry into the war gave the Anglo-French hope; without it, are they going to be as eager to continue the war up to the very end?

Agreed, this seems like a solid and convincing point.
Good. :)

This could work actually. I almost feel moved now in a way, the world you describe seem to have a lot speaking in its advantage... :p
Well, the Entente really screwed things up after WWI by refusing to continue to enforce the WWI peace settlement--thus paving the way for Hitler's rise. This makes me wonder as to whether a CP victory, in spite of its flaws, would have been the superior option here. (An early Entente victory would have probably been the best option, but if that's not happening, then a CP victory might be best.)

Probably in some cases, although I think it might often be a more recent phenomenon (1600-1700s). There was a lot of back and forth of geographic Prussia between the various Germanic kingdoms or states and Poland, with it only "finally" becoming part of Brandenburg in the mid 1600s if I'm not mistaken.
OK.

Otherwise agreed, more or less. It probably would have been easier to assimilate the aristocracy also in some ways: Europe east of the Elbe was historically very feudal, with serfdom being abolished very late. The ties between for example a Polish lord and his peasants do not seem to have been that intimate and friendly.
Possibly--before the age of mass literacy, that is. For instance, in regards to Ukraine, I've previously heard and read that the Ukrainian aristocracy in large part became Polonized under Polish rule but that the Ukrainian peasants remained as they were.

Probably, I can imagine it being similar to what happened to the Baltic Germans in the aftermath of WW1.
AFAIK, only a part of the Baltic Germans actually fled after WWI. Most of them stayed until at least 1939, when Hitler encouraged them to leave and to move to Germany. (It also helped that the Soviets invaded these countries in 1940--something that was already foreseeable in 1939.)
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
18,701
SoCal
#45
Hey @NordicDemosthenes, I have a question for you (and for other people here, such as @deaf tuner): In a scenario where Germany wins WWI, actively recruits Eastern European Jews as administrators, bureaucrats, and functionaries in Germany's newly independent Eastern European puppet states, and then several decades or more later withdraws from Eastern Europe during the wave of decolonization, do you think that Germany would have been willing to accept Eastern European Jewish immigrants en masse? After all, if Jews will become heavily intertwined with German rule in Eastern Europe and the Germans will subsequently leave, might the Jews be tempted to try leaving alongside the Germans? This might be especially true in a scenario where the locals in Eastern Europe are going to be hostile towards both Germans and Jews (due to their anger at several decades or more of German colonial rule).

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?
 
Oct 2013
14,266
Europix
#46
After all, the US entry into the war gave the Anglo-French hope; without it, are they going to be as eager to continue the war up to the very end?
Yes, they would.

Hey @NordicDemosthenes, I have a question for you (and for other people here, such as @deaf tuner): In a scenario where Germany wins WWI, actively recruits Eastern European Jews as administrators, bureaucrats, and functionaries in Germany's newly independent Eastern European puppet states, and then several decades or more later withdraws from Eastern Europe during the wave of decolonization, do you think that Germany would have been willing to accept Eastern European Jewish immigrants en masse? After all, if Jews will become heavily intertwined with German rule in Eastern Europe and the Germans will subsequently leave, might the Jews be tempted to try leaving alongside the Germans? This might be especially true in a scenario where the locals in Eastern Europe are going to be hostile towards both Germans and Jews (due to their anger at several decades or more of German colonial rule).

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?
No.

Puppet states would have not been germanized.

Jewish communities would not have been germanized.

Eastern populations were hostile to Jews for being Jews. Germanized or not germanized.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
18,701
SoCal
#47
No.

Puppet states would have not been germanized.
I never said that they would have been Germanized, now did I?

Jewish communities would not have been germanized.
Even so, though, don't you think that a lot of Jews could become motivated to work for the Germans in Eastern Europe as administrators, bureaucrats, and functionaries? Especially if the Germans would have treated the Jews well and fought against anti-Semitism in Eastern Europe?

Eastern populations were hostile to Jews for being Jews. Germanized or not germanized.
True, but if Germany is friendly towards the Jews, why not try moving to Germany en masse?
 
Oct 2013
14,266
Europix
#48
I never said that they would have been Germanized, now did I? ...
I did. Because it's a premise that would made Your speculation a bit more congruent.

...True, but if Germany is friendly towards the Jews, why not try moving to Germany en masse?
It isn't related to Your "if": Jews left on masse for US because US accepted them for what they are, not because Jews were Americanized or they worked for Americans.

...Even so, though, don't you think that a lot of Jews could become motivated to work for the Germans in Eastern Europe as administrators, bureaucrats, and functionaries? Especially if the Germans would have treated the Jews well and fought against anti-Semitism in Eastern Europe? ...
Jews always worked as administrators, bureaucrats, and functionaries in the region. When they had been accepted.

To be honest, I don't exactly see the base of this "if".
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
18,701
SoCal
#49
I did. Because it's a premise that would made Your speculation a bit more congruent.
How so?

It isn't related to Your "if": Jews left on masse for US because US accepted them for what they are, not because Jews were Americanized or they worked for Americans.
Yes, the Jews saw a better future in the US.

Jews always worked as administrators, bureaucrats, and functionaries in the region. When they had been accepted.

To be honest, I don't exactly see the base of this "if".
Was this actually the case in Tsarist Russia?
 
Oct 2013
14,266
Europix
#50
"Germanized" Jews existed in German areal. In Hungarian areal, there were "Hungarized" Jews, in Romanian areal were "Romanized" Jews, aso.

A German "puppet" state not germanized would not "germanize" the local Jews.

...Was this actually the case in Tsarist Russia?
As I said: "When they had been accepted.... we're they ... ?
 
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