Plausible alternative locations for a Jewish state

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
2,957
Las Vegas, NV USA
#21
Although Israel is called the "Jewish State", it is in fact a secular state.

"According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population in 2013 was estimated at 1,658,000, representing 21% of the country's population. The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship."

google
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,198
Portugal
#22
Although Israel is called the "Jewish State", it is in fact a secular state.

"According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population in 2013 was estimated at 1,658,000, representing 21% of the country's population. The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship."

google
If the definition of “secular state” is the one in the first sentence here: Secular state - Wikipedia

“A secular state is an idea pertaining to secularity, whereby a state is or purports to be officially neutral in matters of religion, supporting neither religion nor irreligion.[1]”

Then, Israel is not a “secular state”, since it is not neutral regarding religion. If there was any doubts, and I don’t think there was, the recent 2018 Basic Law finished them: Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People - Wikipedia

The Basic Laws in Israel are something like a Constitution.

Israel was founded for the people of one specific religion, that is historical. And there are some religious restrictions and laws, for instance regarding interfaith marriage. Probably it is like the original sin for the Christians, they never get rid of it.
 

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
2,957
Las Vegas, NV USA
#23
Israel was founded for the people of one specific religion, that is historical. And there are some religious restrictions and laws, for instance regarding interfaith marriage. Probably it is like the original sin for the Christians, they never get rid of it.
As far as I know Arabs are full citizens. Can you point out any specific restrictions that distinguish Arab citizens from Jewish citizens? Is civil marriage between a Muslim and Jewish citizen prohibited?
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,688
#24
As far as I know Arabs are full citizens. Can you point out any specific restrictions that distinguish Arab citizens from Jewish citizens? Is civil marriage between a Muslim and Jewish citizen prohibited?
there is no civil marriage in Israel though those married outside can be recognised . Around 10% of Israelis marry overseas for this reason (Cyrpus used to populalr)
Marriage and divorce in Israel is totally the domain of various religious authorities , which in Judaism is the orthodox rabbinate.. Jewish wives cannot be grant a divorce if their Husband refuses to do so,

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"The issue of civil marriages is a major issue for secular Jews and members of non-Orthodox streams of Judaism, who are required to meet the Orthodox standards to be able to marry in Israel.[17] There is a debate over whether civil marriages would divide the Jewish people in Israel by increasing interfaith marriages and marriages that do not meet halakhic requirements, and over the character of the Jewish state.

Most secular Jews view their Jewish identity as a matter of culture, heritage, nationality, or ethnicity.[18] Ancestral aspects can be explained by the many Jews who view themselves as atheist and are defined by matrilineal descent[19][20] or a Cohen (Kohen) or Levi, which is connected by ancestry.[21] The question of "who is a Jew" is a question that is under debate.[22] However, matters concerning marriage in Israel are controlled by strict Orthodox standards and disputed issues are resolved by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate. Issues related to ancestral or ethnic Jews are solved by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate.[23][24][25][26]

Orthodox halachic rules apply to converts who want to marry in Israel. Under these rules, a conversion to Judaism must strictly follow halachic standards to be recognised as valid. The rabbinate even scrutinizes Orthodox conversions, with some who have converted by orthodox authorities outside of Israel not being permitted to marry in Israel. For example, a man who converted to Orthodox Judaism in the USA was denied an official marriage in Israel on the grounds that his conversion may not have been legitimate and that the Orthodox rabbi who converted him in Louisiana is not recognized in Israel.[26][27]

In the rabbinical courts, which operate according to halakha (Torah law), a Jewish woman is allowed to initiate divorce proceedings, but her husband must give his consent to make the divorce final. If the husband disappears or refuses to grant the divorce, the wife is considered an "agunah" (lit. "chained woman") and may not remarry or give birth to halakhically legitimate children. Rabbinical tribunals may, and sometimes do, rebuke a husband who refused divorce, but still do not grant a divorce without his consent.[28]

If a person's Jewish status is in doubt, then formal conversion is required in order to be allowed to marry according to the Orthodox rules, which govern all marriages between Jews in Israel.

According to an editorial in The New York Jewish Week:
As a result, non-Orthodox Jewish couples are forced to submit to an Orthodox marriage ceremony with an Orthodox rabbi and are compelled to attend classes on family purity.Family purity[›] No Israeli may marry outside his faith community. Hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens from the former Soviet Union who are not Jewish or whose Jewish ancestry is in doubt are unable to marry at all inside Israel"​
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Marriage in Israel - Wikipedia
 
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Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,198
Portugal
#25
As far as I know Arabs are full citizens. Can you point out any specific restrictions that distinguish Arab citizens from Jewish citizens? Is civil marriage between a Muslim and Jewish citizen prohibited?
My emphasis was not on citizenship, but on religion, since religion is the main issue here. And Arabs (Arabic speakers) are mostly Muslim, but can believe in other religions, there is an Arab Christian minority (Christianity in Israel - Wikipedia), and in theory, Arabs can profess the Judaism (Arab Jews - Wikipedia, but the term raises some controversy, and apparently is not used in Israel).

As for the marriage, pugsville answered, mentioning again our popular encyclopaedia, so apparently yes, marriage between people of different religions is not possible, or even with agnostic or atheist persons, since there is no civil marriage. So… the marriage is a good theme to show the point that Israel is not a secular state. And the system promotes legally religion segregation.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
16,969
SoCal
#26
The natives were demographically overwhelmed in Palestine as were in many places in America and Australia. My hidden question with my proposal was: why should we search for a Plausible alternative locations for a Jewish state?
The natives were only demographically overwhelmed in Palestine as a result of massive numbers of Palestinian Arabs fleeing or being expelled, though. Had all of the Palestinian Arab diaspora returned to Palestine, they would likely have a solid majority over the Jews from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.

In the U.S., Native Americans never had that kind of demographic power--and neither did they in Canada, and neither did the Aborigines in Australia. In all of these cases, there was literally much, much more Whites than Natives.

As for why we should have a Jewish state, well, it would be nice for Jews to have a place where they could preserve their culture just like a lot of other peoples have a place for this. Of course, what would have been really nice would have been if this Jewish state would have been more welcoming to outsiders who would have wanted to assimilate. I mean, Germany is a German nation-state and yet it has been much, much more welcoming to non-ethnic Germans than Israel was to non-Jews.

The current one created huge problems and was only possible in the sequence of the holocaust and the credit that the Jews gained in the politics and popular opinion. Because either today or by the end of the WWII creating, fabricating, a completely new state, based on religious principles, artificial, was and is against the international dominant paradigm.
To be honest, I'm not sure that the Holocaust was absolutely vital for the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. I mean, Yes, it did help with international sympathy, but weren't the Zionists in Palestine determined to create a Jewish state--by force if necessary--even before World War II?
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,688
#27
T
To be honest, I'm not sure that the Holocaust was absolutely vital for the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. I mean, Yes, it did help with international sympathy, but weren't the Zionists in Palestine determined to create a Jewish state--by force if necessary--even before World War II?
Theclosing of the Americas and many iother countries in very early 1930s was probably the hump, denied a home elsewhere , enough Jews would migrate to Paletsine to make the push pretty much unstoppable.

While there was a hard core of dedicated, determined Zonsists who would drive the process were well established before then, they needed numbers in the Jewish population to make it workable. Teh conditions and structures in place made it relatively easy for this core to organise the arrivals to help the push for a Jewish state.

The push of reguees in teh imemdate post war and interntaional sympathy certinaly helped a lot and defeintely shortened the time period to a Jewish state. But without the war and holocuast they would have been a steady steam of imghrants who would not so much choose paletsine but simly have no where else to go. withteh War but without the holocaust the stream would have been much larger.

Force was always nesscary. People dont accepet foriegners comming taking their land and pushing them back to second class citizens without it.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
16,969
SoCal
#28
Theclosing of the Americas and many iother countries in very early 1930s was probably the hump, denied a home elsewhere , enough Jews would migrate to Paletsine to make the push pretty much unstoppable.

While there was a hard core of dedicated, determined Zonsists who would drive the process were well established before then, they needed numbers in the Jewish population to make it workable. Teh conditions and structures in place made it relatively easy for this core to organise the arrivals to help the push for a Jewish state.

The push of reguees in teh imemdate post war and interntaional sympathy certinaly helped a lot and defeintely shortened the time period to a Jewish state. But without the war and holocuast they would have been a steady steam of imghrants who would not so much choose paletsine but simly have no where else to go. withteh War but without the holocaust the stream would have been much larger.
Agreed that a lot of Jews probably went to Palestine because they had nowhere better that they could go to.

Also, out of curiosity--just how much larger do you think that the stream of Jews who would have moved to Palestine would have been with WWII but without the Holocaust? What about without either WWII or the Holocaust?

Finally, as a side question, do you think that a Jewish state would have ever been created in Palestine had the Ottomans remained neutral in WWI or had there been no WWI at all?

Force was always nesscary. People dont accepet foriegners comming taking their land and pushing them back to second class citizens without it.
Agreed. Indeed, even right now, some--if not many--White Americans and White Europeans are unhappy with the changing demographics of their countries--with them feeling that they are becoming strangers in their homelands. Interestingly enough, this is also a part of where modern-day anti-Semitism comes from. Specifically, some Gentiles resent the fact that various Jews have been active in promoting multiculturalism in the West while at the same time being unwilling to support large-scale non-Jewish immigration to Israel.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,688
#29
Agreed that a lot of Jews probably went to Palestine because they had nowhere better that they could go to.
Its without any doubt. They were voting with their feet, immigration to the Americas was more popular. More jews were leaving Paletsine than Arriving 1929/1930.


Also, out of curiosity--just how much larger do you think that the stream of Jews who would have moved to Palestine would have been with WWII but without the Holocaust? What about without either WWII or the Holocaust?
Without War and Holocaust, realtibely slow steady enough to substain the push, but it's not going have the sharp spikes of 1945-50. there is some chance that ecnomics could improve and other alternatives could open up. My thougts is by 1939 the Jewish presence was enough to contest and as long as migration was not stopped they woud gradually dominate. Without the threat of war British motivation to plactate the Arab side drops. Soem sort of conflict between the Jewish extremeists and the British is pretty likely to break out. Without the war the Jewish extrmeists will notbe so well set up. You could wind up with a northern Ireland dirty war style thing dragging on for decades. The war really enabled the Jewish activists and extrmeists to arm, would have been no where bear as well prepared.

With the War without the Holocaust, ethere's a larger pool to draw from but much less motivated. Perhaps many prefer otehr options that open up (many came to Australia historically could have been more in this case) But overall guess is immigration would be greater than historical but not so quick the immediate rush would h=not have happened. Withouyt teh holocaust they is msoem chance the UN does not vote for partition. Which would probalay lead to the longer dirty war situation again.


Finally, as a side question, do you think that a Jewish state would have ever been created in Palestine had the Ottomans remained neutral in WWI or had there been no WWI at all?.
Radically differnet situation, hard to predict by my gut instinct is to say "none at all".
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
16,969
SoCal
#30
Are the British going to stay in Palestine decades longer without WWII?

Also, wasn't Palestinian Arab military power already largely destroyed by the British crushing of the 1936-1939 Arab revolt?
 

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