Plausible alternative locations for a Jewish state

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
14,231
SoCal
#31
As far as I know Arabs are full citizens. Can you point out any specific restrictions that distinguish Arab citizens from Jewish citizens? Is civil marriage between a Muslim and Jewish citizen prohibited?
Israel recognizes civil marriages performed in other countries but doesn't actually perform civil marriages itself.

Also, there's an unwritten rule that Israeli Arab parties should be excluded from Israeli governing coalitions. It's a huge shame since it ensures that Arabs aren't going to get an adequate say in Israeli national policy--which also affects them considering that they would benefit if, for instance, Israel would have decided to spend more money on them, their needs, and their concerns.
 
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pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,318
#32
Israel recognizes civil marriages performed in other countries but doesn't actually perform civil marriages itself.

Also, there's an unwritten rule that Israeli Arab parties should be excluded from Israeli governing coalitions. It's a huge shame since it ensures that Arabs aren't going to get an adequate say in Israeli national policy--which also affects them considering that they would benefit if, for instance, Israel would have decided to spend more money on them, their needs, and their concerns.
The prime Minister was just syaing israel is not a state oif all it;s citizens but a jewish State. Whats does that mean? How does this primacy of identity Jewness relate to equailty?

Some laws of Israel are only ever applied to Arab citizens. Pressnt Absentee property laws are not applied to the Jewish population.

Arab towns are virtually unchnaged from 1948 in terms of boundaries, Arab towbns are crowded, often the commercial zones are in Jewish areas (towns get most of their revenue from commerical rates), there are still Arab villages which predate the founsing of Isreal that are unrecognised by the State. The State of Israel is conerned with developing Jewish towns , promoted Jewish Immigration, celbvrating Jewish culture. The state funds stydying the Jewish religion.
 
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Futurist

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May 2014
14,231
SoCal
#33
The prime Minister was just syaing israel is not a state oif all it;s citizens but a jewish State. Whats does that mean? How does this primacy of identity Jewness relate to equailty?

Some laws of Israel are only ever applied to Arab citizens. Pressnt Absentee property laws are not applied to the Jewish population.

Arab towns are virtually unchnaged from 1948 in terms of boundaries, Arab towbns are crowded, often the commercial zones are in Jewish areas (towns get most of their revenue from commerical rates), there are still Arab villages which predate the founsing of Isreal that are unrecognised by the State. The State of Israel is conerned with developing Jewish towns , promoted Jewish Immigration, celbvrating Jewish culture. The state funds stydying the Jewish religion.
Oh, I agree that Israel needs to reform itself in a lot of ways. Letting non-Jews immigrate to Israel en masse, legalizing civil marriage, letting Arab parties into governing coalitions so that their interests are actually going to be represented, et cetera. IMHO, Israel should abolish all legal distinctions between different groups of peoples with the partial exception of immigration. Israel should still let Jews freely immigrate to Israel but should also open its doors to large numbers of non-Jewish immigrants. Heck, this might not even be a problem in the long(er)-run if these non-Jewish immigrants will intermarry en masse with the Israeli Jewish population.

Interestingly enough, if Israel outright annexes the West Bank, then this might ultimately help pave the way for the end of Jewish chauvinism in Israel.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,720
Portugal
#34
The natives were only demographically overwhelmed in Palestine as a result of massive numbers of Palestinian Arabs fleeing or being expelled, though. Had all of the Palestinian Arab diaspora returned to Palestine, they would likely have a solid majority over the Jews from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.

In the U.S., Native Americans never had that kind of demographic power--and neither did they in Canada, and neither did the Aborigines in Australia. In all of these cases, there was literally much, much more Whites than Natives.
The USA and Australian analogy were only examples of two cases where the natives where demographically overwhelmed. Just that. Prolonging the analogy destroys it.

As for why we should have a Jewish state, well, it would be nice for Jews to have a place where they could preserve their culture just like a lot of other peoples have a place for this. Of course, what would have been really nice would have been if this Jewish state would have been more welcoming to outsiders who would have wanted to assimilate. I mean, Germany is a German nation-state and yet it has been much, much more welcoming to non-ethnic Germans than Israel was to non-Jews.
Naturally this is a issue of political opinion. So, in my perspective, why it was nice for the German, and European Jews to have a state? Because we had the holocaust and before the holocaust we had tons of persecutions and pogroms. So it would be nice because of that, nothing more. Quite often the Jews that lived in those countries were citizens of those countries and felt like part of those countries and states, they didn’t need a new country or a new state. Even less an artificial one that made a huge disruption.

To be honest, I'm not sure that the Holocaust was absolutely vital for the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. I mean, Yes, it did help with international sympathy, but weren't the Zionists in Palestine determined to create a Jewish state--by force if necessary--even before World War II?
Yes, the Zionists movement to Palestine pre-dates WWII, but the British mainly opposed to it. WWII and the Holocaust that gave the Jews sympathy and the idea in the political circles and public opinion that the Jews needed a “home” of their own. Besides the ones that survived saw the possibility to find a place in Palestine. It is speculative, not historically, to say that the Jewish state wouldn’t exist without WWII, but it is correct to say that WWII and its consequences were a part of the process of the creation of the Jewish state.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,318
#35
T
Yes, the Zionists movement to Palestine pre-dates WWII, but the British mainly opposed to it. W.
The British Mainly supported it. They were conflicted, inconsistent, changed their attitudes often. But withoiut teh Birtish support the Zionsits would not have suceeded. Teh bnritish in teh end stood by the Zionist enterprise in many importnat aspects, many british officers and officals had Arab sympatheis , but many had Jewish sympathies. The Net result of British actions was solidly in favor of the Zionists.

They allowed the ZIonsits to organise recginised their leadership (whiel interefering and not allowing Arab leadership), the mandate authroity paid Jews more for the same work as Arabs, favoured Jews in buiness deals, as long as theBritish allowed failry large scale jewish immigration it was juts how quickly or slowly the Palestinians were losing.

Look at the methods used to put down the Arab revolt compared to the response to Jewish terrorism. ord Windgate arming/trianing/use of the special night squads and Jewish auxiliary police certinaly helped with the formation of Jewish militas. (as did Intellgence agency links/operations with Jewish underground Militias during the war).
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,720
Portugal
#36
The British Mainly supported it. They were conflicted, inconsistent, changed their attitudes often. But withoiut teh Birtish support the Zionsits would not have suceeded. Teh bnritish in teh end stood by the Zionist enterprise in many importnat aspects, many british officers and officals had Arab sympatheis , but many had Jewish sympathies. The Net result of British actions was solidly in favor of the Zionists.

They allowed the ZIonsits to organise recginised their leadership (whiel interefering and not allowing Arab leadership), the mandate authroity paid Jews more for the same work as Arabs, favoured Jews in buiness deals, as long as theBritish allowed failry large scale jewish immigration it was juts how quickly or slowly the Palestinians were losing.

Look at the methods used to put down the Arab revolt compared to the response to Jewish terrorism. ord Windgate arming/trianing/use of the special night squads and Jewish auxiliary police certinaly helped with the formation of Jewish militas. (as did Intellgence agency links/operations with Jewish underground Militias during the war).
Fair and quite relevant points. But I have some doubts in the allowing “failry large scale of jewish immigration”. I confess that when I wrote that sentence I was mostly (or solely) thinking in the migration issue, in the British restrictions/blockade to Jewish migration and the buying of land. With more or less intensity I think this happened from the end of WWI to 1947.

I read about this ages ago, but here Google and Wikipedia were my friends: Jewish insurgency in Mandatory Palestine - Wikipedia
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,318
#37
Fair and quite relevant points. But I have some doubts in the allowing “failry large scale of jewish immigration”. I confess that when I wrote that sentence I was mostly (or solely) thinking in the migration issue, in the British restrictions/blockade to Jewish migration and the buying of land. With more or less intensity I think this happened from the end of WWI to 1947.

I read about this ages ago, but here Google and Wikipedia were my friends: Jewish insurgency in Mandatory Palestine - Wikipedia
Restrictions of Jews buying land or immigrating were often ineffective. While Jewish Immigration continued altering the the population hugely in Palestsine, the British were heavily favoring the Zionsists

as your wikipedia article states.
"overall, between 1929 and 1940, a period of mass Jewish immigration known as the Fifth Aliyah occurred despite British restrictions. Nearly 250,000 Jews (of whom 20,000 later left) immigrated to Palestine, many of them illegally.[12]"

If you just look at the last couple years of the mandate when the conflict betwen the british and Zionists was at it's height it's not a fair representation of the Entire story of the Mandate.

But there is a large difference between how the Arab revolt was supressed in the 1930s and how the Jewish revolt of the 1940s were dealt with by the British.

British policy and actions were often contradictory and working against itself, Cairo, the Mandate Authority, the Army, the foreign office and the Politicians rarely agreed in theory or in practice, and then you throw in wildcards like Windgate.

Patciculalry in teh Early Mnadte Period the British encoruaged and allowed the Zionsits to organise and estblish a shadow state, and large immigration to create a hold of Paletsine, and often enables the ZIonsits getting a degree of ecnomic control, the British prevented the Arabs from organizing in the same way, In the Middle ish period up till the end of teh war, the British allowed or at least failed to really oppose large scale immigrtaion, ruthless crushed the Arab resistance and armed and trained large amounts of the Jewish population. The Zionist sucess rested heavily on British asistance, not all of whihc was offical policy but it was fragmented , disjointed and working at cross purposes, so coherence in the British policy ws lacking.
 
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