Portugal vs. Spain: Who had the more dominant empire?

More dominant empire?

  • Spain

    Votes: 20 83.3%
  • Portugal

    Votes: 4 16.7%

  • Total voters
    24

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,664
Portugal
#91
I guess you could consider Catalan and so on languages rather than dialects, but usually they talk about 5 Romance languages. If you include all the dialects or whatever, there are a large number of languages.
I don’t know to what “they” you are referring, but there are much more than 5 romance languages. Today usually are mentioned the Portuguese, the Spanish, the Italian, the French and the Romanian because they are the most spoken Latin languages, not because they are the five existing. And, as I stated, it is not a question that I could consider Catalan a language. Catalan is considered a language not only by me, but by the experts in the theme, by the Academic. As I stated previously there is an academic discussion about the Galician. Some consider it a language others a dialect form the Galician-Portuguese. But from the mentioned idioms that is the only one that raises questions.

The Basques originally were the people of all of Iberia. Indo Europeans and North Africans moved in. Spanish has a large percentage of Basque words and has Basque characteristics like only 5 vowels. There is a region where the Basque language is spoken and so on. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't Basque ethnic and cultural influence elsewhere.
We don’t know if the Basques were originally the people of all of the Iberian Peninsula. Most probably not, since it is doubfull that the peninsula had a sole cultural identity. There is a theory that links the Basques with the Ancient Iberians, that means only the South East coast. But it is more certain that the “Basques”, here in comas, are related with the Aquitaines mentioned by Caesar in his work about Gaul. The first list of peoples in the Iberian Peninsula is included in the poem “Ora Maritima” by Avienus: Avienus: Ora Maritima (in Latin, probably there is online a translation).
 
Nov 2010
7,666
Cornwall
#92
I guess you could consider Catalan and so on languages rather than dialects, but usually they talk about 5 Romance languages. If you include all the dialects or whatever, there are a large number of languages.

The Basques originally were the people of all of Iberia. Indo Europeans and North Africans moved in. Spanish has a large percentage of Basque words and has Basque characteristics like only 5 vowels. There is a region where the Basque language is spoken and so on. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't Basque ethnic and cultural influence elsewhere.
Have you ever read any Basque? I got a book to learn it before I went there. Not possible.

Spooky
 

betgo

Ad Honorem
Jul 2011
6,281
#94
I haven't tried to learn Basque, but it's a non Indo European language, so it should be completely different. If you know English or French or whatever, than Latvian, Croatian, Welsh, or whatever has some similarities, as they are from the same root way back. My understanding is that Spanish has large numbers of Basque, Iberian, Celtic, and Arabic words though.

Tulius is right. Catalan etc. are considered languages. However, Portuguese would be like Galician etc. if Spain had conquered or joined with Portugal. All the regional languages lost out to Castilian in the 17th to 20th centuries.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,664
Portugal
#95
Yes, Castilian has a strong Basque substratum. We don’t see that Basque influence in the other Latin Peninsular Languages, as far as I understand not even in the Aragonese and Leonese.

About the Basque we should recall that the language was almost dead by the end of the 19th century, but with a strong growing interest due to anthropological and nationalist motifs begun a resurrection that had an important moment with the creation of the “Real Academia de la Lengua Vasca”, in 1918, and other institutions. Around that time the Basque was reconstituted in “laboratory”, using the still known words from the villages that still spoke the language, recurring to the written sources, and recreating new words with the grammatical rules that were known, and filling the gaps with Castilian turned to Basque. But many options were quite questionable, to say the least.

However, Portuguese would be like Galician etc. if Spain had conquered or joined with Portugal.
You mean the Portuguese would be like the Galician with strong Castilian influences, with many Castilian words and accent? Yes. Most probably. But yet the Galician and the Portuguese still are perfectly intelligible.
 

Frank81

Ad Honorem
Feb 2010
5,071
Canary Islands-Spain
#97
Yes, Castilian has a strong Basque substratum. We don’t see that Basque influence in the other Latin Peninsular Languages, as far as I understand not even in the Aragonese and Leonese.

About the Basque we should recall that the language was almost dead by the end of the 19th century, but with a strong growing interest due to anthropological and nationalist motifs begun a resurrection that had an important moment with the creation of the “Real Academia de la Lengua Vasca”, in 1918, and other institutions. Around that time the Basque was reconstituted in “laboratory”, using the still known words from the villages that still spoke the language, recurring to the written sources, and recreating new words with the grammatical rules that were known, and filling the gaps with Castilian turned to Basque. But many options were quite questionable, to say the least.



You mean the Portuguese would be like the Galician with strong Castilian influences, with many Castilian words and accent? Yes. Most probably. But yet the Galician and the Portuguese still are perfectly intelligible.

Agree that most western Iberian languages seem to lack that Basque influence, the more western, the less Basque. But that's not entirely correct: some very deep Basque words, or more accurately pre-Indoeuropean words, entered all Ibero-Romance languages, including Portuguese and Catalan (which is Gallo-Romance): for example, Esquerra, Esquerda, Izquierda, Ezker = Left

I'd love to write a LOT more on the issue, focusing on the very complex evolution of the Latin and Vasconic communities around the western Pyrenees in the late Antiquity, but I wanted to point that by now
 
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Likes: Tulius
Oct 2015
5,222
Matosinhos Portugal
#98
It is not possible to say better than you, dear Tulius. Also I agree with you. The process of differentiation was slow and took centuries ... perhaps it began at late Middle Ages and finally crystallized throughout the nineteenth century.

Really you are a master in Medieval History....

Dear and appasioante Latino... from the Poem Mio Cid preserved in National Library. Mio Cid was written late 12th Century and "edited" in 1200. The National Library copy is from early 14th Century... and It is a copy from a lost copy written in the year 1207.

For your eyes.. The España script as it is written today. Efpaña (F was S till 19th Century). España... you can watch:

View attachment 16311

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View attachment 16313

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View attachment 16315

In this last photo you can read "los reyes de España" (the Kings of Spain)... in a text written in 1207 (The tex in the National Library is from early 14th Century). So... we can know the word España/ Espanha existed in 1207 with the same spelling that in 2019... And I guess the word was not invented in 1207 but likely the word existed (with the same spelling) from 12th Century for sure.

Who were the "Kings of Spain"....written in Poem Mio Cid... Likely the Kings of Lion. The Reyes de León/reis de Leao... they used employed the word Reyes de España (in castillian)... and in Latin.

In any case, dear Latino... Tulius has give a lesson about history... proving once again his deep historical knowledge.

Dear Tulius +1.

I think you are right... Personally I speak about Portugal and Spain from 19th Century (if you like from 18th Century too)... but when we speak before 18th Century... I speak about Portugal and Castile-Aragon-Navarre. Because the four were... the Great Kingdoms of Spain!

So if we talk about Peninsular War... I will write Portugal and Spain... but if we are talking about 1500 or Tordesillas... I will speak about Portugal and Castilla... because both they were Spain.

Regards.
................

Dear martin 76 I'm sorry, I just say this do not make me laugh. You know that the kingdom of Portucalense was born in 1095.You know how many Kings and Queens Portugal had, of course, that at this time you do not know, you know to search the Internet.

Do you know the origin of words? Madre Padre



yes they are Latin words, but the birth was not in Spain Castela - amigo martin 76 Portugal is bordered by two countries and not only with one Castela is bordered by several countries, my friend and I can understand Portuguese Castilian words that are similar to Portuguese , such as home food sleeping, but words street window and other more to en understand I have to use the translator of google. Now you imagine if a Portuguese understands the Catalan language or Basque language with all respect for Portuguese these language is similar to Chinese as vice versa. Friend to the only Spain that I know is the one of the language Castelhana the other territories, they were united as they were annexed You have the case of Catalonia they say we are not Spanish.


Spain Madre and Padre - Italian Madre Padre - Portuguese Mãe e Pai English Mom and Dad
 
Likes: martin76
Oct 2015
5,222
Matosinhos Portugal
#99
I meant Portuguese would be like Galician in that not spoken by many.
The Galician language is similar to Portuguese, but has many words distant from the Portuguese language, throughout the centuries the Portuguese language has evolved into Galician language. Today there are no Castilian words mixed in the Galician language.

Galician word » Xunta

Portuguese word » Junta

the word has the same meaning .

-------------------------------

In English » I am just giving an example, about a word, which is spelled differently but has the same meaning.

In portuguese » Eu só estou a dar um exemplo,sobre uma palavra,que se escreve de maneira diferente mas tem o mesmo significado.

In Galician » Só teño un exemplo sobre unha palabra que se escribe de xeito diferente pero ten o mesmo significado.

In Spanish Castilian » Sólo estoy dando un ejemplo, sobre una palabra, que se escribe de manera diferente pero tiene el mismo significado


Word Galician Unha In portuguese Uma IN inglish one
-----------------

In portuguese word Unha translate into English Nail ( Unha Nail )

In Galician word Unha In portuguese Uma

Unha - Uma

is another example nor is the whole Galician language similar to Portuguese.
 
Oct 2015
5,222
Matosinhos Portugal
Let me see if I follow you here: According to you Portuguese is a dialect of what language? Latin, Galician, Leonese, Castilian, Aragonese, Catalan?



I presume that by ethnically here you are only considering the biologic factor. But why you consider the Andalusia different from the south of Portugal?
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Tulius is also derived from the Latin Greek Latin Hebrew - as is also all the Latin languages, added even more a few words in Portuguese as the origin of Africa etc.
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Tulius tambem é derivado do árabe grego hebraico latim - como é tambem todas as linguas latinas,acrescentado mais ainda algumas palavras no português como origem de áfrica etc.