Portugal vs. Spain: Who had the more dominant empire?

More dominant empire?

  • Spain

    Votes: 20 83.3%
  • Portugal

    Votes: 4 16.7%

  • Total voters
    24

Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,171
US
I was listening to a Youtube video entitled The Decline of Al-Andalus and the Rise of the Kingdom of Leon. The video has me wondering, what, if any, are the historical differences between the Portuguese and the Spanish? Are they ethnically different, as in being derived from different groups or tribes?
 

betgo

Ad Honorem
Jul 2011
6,324
I was listening to a Youtube video entitled The Decline of Al-Andalus and the Rise of the Kingdom of Leon. The video has me wondering, what, if any, are the historical differences between the Portuguese and the Spanish? Are they ethnically different, as in being derived from different groups or tribes?
There were a mix of peoples in the Iberian peninsula, including Basques (the remains of the original pre-Indo-European Spanish), Celts, North African Muslims, Jews, Romans and people from elsewhere in the Roman Empire, Greeks, and Phoenicians. There are some ethnic differences between Portugal and Spain. However, the main difference is that Portugal survived as an independent country with its dialect considered a language.
 
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betgo

Ad Honorem
Jul 2011
6,324
The Basque region and Andalusia are more ethnically different from the rest of Iberia than Portugal is. It is just that Castile swallowed up everything but Portugal.

There are separate countries where they even have the same language, like Austria and Germany. Actually Austria is mostly not ethnically German, but it isn't much different culturally and ethnically than Barvaria. The cultural and ethnic differences between China and Taiwan, the US and Canada or various Spanish speaking American countries is also not that great.
 
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Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,872
Portugal
However, the main difference is that Portugal survived as an independent country with its dialect considered a language.
Let me see if I follow you here: According to you Portuguese is a dialect of what language? Latin, Galician, Leonese, Castilian, Aragonese, Catalan?

The Basque region and Andalusia are more ethnically different from the rest of Iberia than Portugal is. It is just that Castile swallowed up everything but Portugal.
I presume that by ethnically here you are only considering the biologic factor. But why you consider the Andalusia different from the south of Portugal?
 

betgo

Ad Honorem
Jul 2011
6,324
Let me see if I follow you here: According to you Portuguese is a dialect of what language? Latin, Galician, Leonese, Castilian, Aragonese, Catalan?

Of Latin. Most of the others you mentioned are considered dialects because Castilian Spanish is the main language. Portuguese is a language because Portuguese is an independent country.
 

johnincornwall

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,672
Cornwall
Sorry the quote thing is all messed up here now:

The Basque region and Andalusia are more ethnically different from the rest of Iberia than Portugal is. It is just that Castile swallowed up everything but Portugal.
.
No it didn't. Aragon/Catalonia swallowed up most of the conquests of Aragon, Southern Catalonia, Communidad Valeniciana and the Balearics


Tulius - Let me see if I follow you here: According to you Portuguese is a dialect of what language? Latin, Galician, Leonese, Castilian, Aragonese, Catalan?
Betgo - "Of Latin. Most of the others you mentioned are considered dialects because Castilian Spanish is the main language. Portuguese is a language because Portuguese is an independent country"

Is Euskadi (Basque) a language? Because that isn't a country. Apart from that they are all Romance languages, derived from Latin ultimately. Strangely if you look at old quotes such as you find in Martinez Diez's book on El Cid, the Castillian is much more resembling of Catalan than it is today. The development of the languauges is complex.

Tulius - I presume that by ethnically here you are only considering the biologic factor. But why you consider the Andalusia different from the south of Portugal?

It makes no sense at all
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,872
Portugal
Of Latin. Most of the others you mentioned are considered dialects because Castilian Spanish is the main language. Portuguese is a language because Portuguese is an independent country.
Well, all my readings about the subject and even the encyclopaedias consider the idioms that I mentioned languages and not dialects, with the sole exception of the Portuguese/Galician relation, so you base the idea that the Portuguese and the other idioms are dialects, with the exception of the Castilian, in what? Any author, or is a personal idea?

Let us not be much academic for the time being, and stick with Wikipedia:

Catalan language - Wikipedia

Asturleonese language - Wikipedia

Galician-Portuguese - Wikipedia

Aragonese language - Wikipedia

Spanish language - Wikipedia

Note that in the first sentences of all the entries, the mentioned idioms are considered languages and often are also mentioned some dialects of those languages.

And a quite simplified schematic:

Western Romance languages - Wikipedia

If you want to go to something more academic, here we have one about the Galician-Portuguese, from the Universidade de Évora: https://dspace.uevora.pt/rdpc/bitstream/10174/22196/1/Roteiro_de_História_da_Língua_Portuguesa.pdf (in Portuguese).

And about the Aragonese (but in Spanish): http://openaccess.uoc.edu/webapps/o2/bitstream/10609/15081/3/cmarco351TFC0612memoria.pdf, from the Universitat Oberta de Catalunya.

I am not a philologist, or an expert in languages, but in the situation that the academy is so consensual about a theme, after so many studies, and when I don’t have anything to defy that consensus, I just follow the dominant paradigm.
 

johnincornwall

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,672
Cornwall
I was listening to a Youtube video entitled The Decline of Al-Andalus and the Rise of the Kingdom of Leon. The video has me wondering, what, if any, are the historical differences between the Portuguese and the Spanish? Are they ethnically different, as in being derived from different groups or tribes?
It's a very long story.

There were a mix of peoples in the Iberian peninsula, including Basques (the remains of the original pre-Indo-European Spanish), Celts, North African Muslims, Jews, Romans and people from elsewhere in the Roman Empire, Greeks, and Phoenicians. .
More or less. Don't forget Visigoths and technically, the Roman conquest interrupted the 'Celtisation' of Iberia, so don't forget those iberians. As Basques tended to stick 'up north' are they part of the 'blend'? Not sure

Muslims came from many places other than North Africa, mainly the middle east/Yemen, but of course the vast majority of what came to be Spanish muslims' were originally hispano-roman/Visigothic. In the south these were eliminated virtually and replaced with, ultimately, immigrants. Not so further north though, where the switch was more 'peaceful' over time
 
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Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,872
Portugal
The video has me wondering, what, if any, are the historical differences between the Portuguese and the Spanish? Are they ethnically different, as in being derived from different groups or tribes?
Both countries had similar histories, so I think is fair to say that there are many similarities between the Spanish and the Portuguese, both in biology and culture. And yet the differences are enough to make them culturally distinct.

Those differences appeared with the disintegration of the Roman Empire in the Iberian Peninsula and with the arrival of the Visigoths and Suebi, and less with the pre-Roman peoples that were quite diverse, both Indo-European, and pre-Indo-European. The Muslim occupation of huge parts of the territory was also slightly different in both countries, more extended in Spain, especially in the south, but the cultural matrix came mostly from the Christian North. With the political evolution of the Iberian Peninsula those cultural differences that could be quite small in the Middle Ages gained relevance.

Edit: Just saw that johnincornwall had answered previously, and I agree with him. I think that the two answers can give you an initial idea.
 
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betgo

Ad Honorem
Jul 2011
6,324
I guess you could consider Catalan and so on languages rather than dialects, but usually they talk about 5 Romance languages. If you include all the dialects or whatever, there are a large number of languages.

The Basques originally were the people of all of Iberia. Indo Europeans and North Africans moved in. Spanish has a large percentage of Basque words and has Basque characteristics like only 5 vowels. There is a region where the Basque language is spoken and so on. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't Basque ethnic and cultural influence elsewhere.