Pre-Columbian Contact with the New World

Feb 2017
403
Latin America
The length of the settlement is historically relevant in this case to analyse the consequences. The Norse settlement was historically inconsequent. It didn’t unite the continents as the voyage of Columbus.

Same can be said about the potentially other arrivals of others to America. They could exist, but they didn’t had consequences.

Maybe my bias is working here, but one of the previous arrivals that if existed could had a historical consequence was the Portuguese one. Because if existed it could be on the origin of the change of the meridian of the Tordesilhas Treaty to the West (1494), after the pope’s proposal (1493), as asked by the king D. João II, and allowing Portugal to set a bigger foot on America, and thus allowing the existence of Brazil.

See the change of the meridian to the west here: Tratado de Tordesilhas – Wikipédia, a enciclopédia livre
The Norse did however inspire Columbus. Nicholas Niger's map of Greenland inspired Columbus to take a trip to Iceland, which he was convinced was an island off the coast of India. That was what ultimately inspired him to cross the Atlantic.

Also, it's not unlikely that North American indigenous traders were regularly docking in Iceland, Ireland and even Scotland, at least after the Vikings arrived.
 

royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,763
San Antonio, Tx
A saxon talking about a Germanic Myth.... because he can´t stand how... TEXAS,,, AMERICA from ALASKA to TIERRA DEL FUEGO.... From Amazonas Mouths to COLORADO... was discovered, explored and conquered by "Untersmeschen".... from Hispanian, Espana, Espanna, Spannan, from the Kingdoms of Castile, Lion, Aragon, Navarra, Granada and Portugal..
This response tells me more about you than perhaps you understand. Tell me: What is the Germanic myth?
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
6,160
Portugal
The Norse did however inspire Columbus. Nicholas Niger's map of Greenland inspired Columbus to take a trip to Iceland, which he was convinced was an island off the coast of India. That was what ultimately inspired him to cross the Atlantic.
Source for:

Had Columbus access to Nicholas Niger’s works?
The statement that Nicholas was convinced that Iceland was an island in the coast of India?

If by Norse inspiration you mean that Columbus wrote that he was in Thule (Iceland) and when he lived in Portugal he could certainly be aware of 1472/3 Portuguese/Danish expedition to Greenland (mentioned by Gaspar Frutoso work), Island already abandoned by the Norse at the time. Then, I agree with you.

Link to Gaspar Frutoso work: As Saudades da terra : Gaspar Frutuoso , Alvaro Rodrigues de Azevedo : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I mentioned this expedition on another thread: What do we know about the Portuguese-Danish voyage to Greenland in 1472/3?

Also, it's not unlikely that North American indigenous traders were regularly docking in Iceland, Ireland and even Scotland, at least after the Vikings arrived.
“North American indigenous traders” in Europe!?

Do you base this “not unlikely” in what?
 
Feb 2017
403
Latin America
Source for:

Had Columbus access to Nicholas Niger’s works?
The statement that Nicholas was convinced that Iceland was an island in the coast of India?

If by Norse inspiration you mean that Columbus wrote that he was in Thule (Iceland) and when he lived in Portugal he could certainly be aware of 1472/3 Portuguese/Danish expedition to Greenland (mentioned by Gaspar Frutoso work), Island already abandoned by the Norse at the time. Then, I agree with you.

Link to Gaspar Frutoso work: As Saudades da terra : Gaspar Frutuoso , Alvaro Rodrigues de Azevedo : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I mentioned this expedition on another thread: What do we know about the Portuguese-Danish voyage to Greenland in 1472/3?
Columbus knew about Niger's map of Greenland at least indirectly from Fernao Martins, who had intimate knowledge of Paolo de Toscanelli and his examination of Nicholas Niger's map of Greenland and Vinland.

“North American indigenous traders” in Europe!?

Do you base this “not unlikely” in what?
In the five centuries of constant contact with the Norse and in the fact that indigenous traders could easily cross the Arctic? You seem to basically base your incredulity simply on the idea that indigenous peoples could not possibly develop ship technology to reach Europe, but this is just unfounded nonsense. Already navigating between Canada and Greenland is already long and perilous enough and we know they had been doing so for centuries. Read Jack D. Forbes "The American Discovery of Europe".
 

royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,763
San Antonio, Tx
A saxon talking about a Germanic Myth.... because he can´t stand how... TEXAS,,, AMERICA from ALASKA to TIERRA DEL FUEGO.... From Amazonas Mouths to COLORADO... was discovered, explored and conquered by "Untersmeschen".... from Hispanian, Espana, Espanna, Spannan, from the Kingdoms of Castile, Lion, Aragon, Navarra, Granada and Portugal..
I’m not Saxon. Don’t assume things you know nothing about.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
6,160
Portugal
Columbus knew about Niger's map of Greenland at least indirectly from Fernao Martins, who had intimate knowledge of Paolo de Toscanelli and his examination of Nicholas Niger's map of Greenland and Vinland.
I know of the link between Columbus and the Cónego Fernão (Fernando) Martins de Reriz, and of the correspondence between the Cónego and Toscanelli.

But do we have a link between Toscanelli and Nicholas Niger?

And did Nicholas Niger said that Iceland "was an island off the coast of India"?

In the five centuries of constant contact with the Norse and in the fact that indigenous traders could easily cross the Arctic?
The Eskimos crossed “the Artic” when they can. They jump from Island to Island, often when the sea is frozen. It is not the same that trading in Iceland, Ireland and Scotland. If I recall correctly the arrival of the Eskimos to Greenland is posterior to the arrival of the Norse, and was that arrival that ended with the Norse settlements there.

You seem to basically base your incredulity simply on the idea that indigenous peoples could not possibly develop ship technology to reach Europe, but this is just unfounded nonsense. Already navigating between Canada and Greenland is already long and perilous enough and we know they had been doing so for centuries.
“Canada” and Greenland are next to each other. Then Canada and Greenland aren’t in Europe. Canada and Greenland aren’t Iceland, Ireland and Scotland either.

I only base my incredulity in the lack of sources of American traders in Europe, pre-1492. If there are sources, please quote them.

Besides, as far as we know, we don’t have reliable sources that the Americans had sailing ships. There are some iconography that is much inconclusive, but the Spanish never mentioned in their sources sails on the first contacts. Even if the Caribs seem to adapt it quickly. Again if I am outdated here, please correct me.

Read Jack D. Forbes "The American Discovery of Europe".
I never read fully that work of Jack D. Forbes, just passages and reviews, I know about his fame in certain circles, but does he mention the existence of American traders in Iceland, Ireland and Scotland pre-1492? Or proposes? I know that in the book he mentions Americans in Europe post-1492, and also the known story about a canoe that Columbus allegedly saw or heard about, with two dead bodies, don’t recall correctly. We don’t know from were that canoe was, if existed, albeit the most plausible explanation is that it came from America on a storm.
 
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martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,817
Spain
How the Germans presented the facts are irrelevant. The Vikings had a settlement on Newfoundland, archaeology proves that, so the Viking discovery of the Americas is not a myth, as you claim.



The length of settlement is irrelevant, the fact of settlement is what counts when discussing who was in the new world prior to Columbus.



No. I have never said that, or even implied it.

You seem to want to turn this thread into a nationalistic "who did it best? It was us" type discussion. I have no interest in such a boring and pointless endeavour so I will leave you to it.
You are manipulating the History... Vikings never discovere nothing.... as Electricity existed from EONS of time ago....and however was not used in 1158... but Electricity existed in 1158 BC!!!!

Where are the Viking maps?

So, Vikings discovered nothing, My Saxon friend!... in fact, so... who discovered West Hemisphere were groups of Siberian gatherers who crossed the Bering Strait in Prehistory and whose descendants were met by both the Vikings and the Conquistadores. The American voyages of the Vikings, unable to survive on the new lands, had no historical impact. The arrival of Colón in the New World meant, however, a radical change in the history of the discovered territory and the rest of the world: .. nothing matched with Viking at all....

Your 19th Century Pangermanist myth doesn´t stand a minima historical criticism...So.. What many thousands years later... will be known as America was discovered by Siberians.. not by Vikings.. my dear...

Also Vikings discoverd Tahiti, Marianas, Carolinas, Palaos, Marshall... New Guinea.... Salomón Islands.....Borneo, Luzon, Mindanao.... Oh my God... Vikings were in everywhere...Also Vikings discovered Victoria Lake.... didn´t they?

So, yes... Colón discovered America although you and Royal wants leasing the ears of Swedish emigrants settled in Wisconsin ... but they are not there because of Erik ... but because of Cristobal ...Sorry.. History is what´s not what we want....
 
Feb 2017
403
Latin America
I know of the link between Columbus and the Cónego Fernão (Fernando) Martins de Reriz, and of the correspondence between the Cónego and Toscanelli.

But do we have a link between Toscanelli and Nicholas Niger?

And did Nicholas Niger said that Iceland "was an island off the coast of India"?
I never said Niger said that. I said Columbus became convinced of that. It is well-known that Toscanelli had the map of Greenland and the surrounding American areas known to the Norse made by Nicholas Niger (also known as Claudius Clavus and Clausson Swart) and examined it thoroughly with Gemistos Pletho at the Council of Florence.


The Eskimos crossed “the Artic” when they can. They jump from Island to Island, often when the sea is frozen. It is not the same that trading in Iceland, Ireland and Scotland. If I recall correctly the arrival of the Eskimos to Greenland is posterior to the arrival of the Norse, and was that arrival that ended with the Norse settlements there.

“Canada” and Greenland are next to each other. Then Canada and Greenland aren’t in Europe. Canada and Greenland aren’t Iceland, Ireland and Scotland either.

I only base my incredulity in the lack of sources of American traders in Europe, pre-1492. If there are sources, please quote them.

Besides, as far as we know, we don’t have reliable sources that the Americans had sailing ships. There are some iconography that is much inconclusive, but the Spanish never mentioned in their sources sails on the first contacts. Even if the Caribs seem to adapt it quickly. Again if I am outdated here, please correct me.


I never read fully that work of Jack D. Forbes, just passages and reviews, I know about his fame in certain circles, but does he mention the existence of American traders in Iceland, Ireland and Scotland pre-1492? Or proposes? I know that in the book he mentions Americans in Europe post-1492, and also the known story about a canoe that Columbus allegedly saw or heard about, with two dead bodies, don’t recall correctly. We don’t know from were that canoe was, if existed, albeit the most plausible explanation is that it came from America on a storm.
I never said anything about only Eskimos. If you didn't know, there were indigenous people in Greenland before the Inuits/Eskimos and they also had a navigation tradition. Jack D. Forbes mentions such traders in Ireland in the book I gave:

"Sometime during the 1470s a group of Native Americans followed the Gulf Stream from the Americas to Ireland. We don’t know if they were from the Caribbean region or from North America. We don’t know if their journey was intentional or if they were driven eastward by a storm. What we do know is that two or more Americans, at least a man and a woman, reached Galway Bay, Ireland, and were there seen by Christoforo Colomb (Columbus) long prior to his famous voyage of 1492." Discovery of America, p. 5.

The idea that they only moved by ship only in specific seasons is simply doubting the technological capacity that they had. Moving between Canada and Greenland is honestly not less difficult and the distance not that much different from moving between Greenland and Iceland and from there arriving to Ireland. Legends such as the Welsh Richard Ap Meryk or the idea that Celts had been going forth and back from North America which developed in the late 16th century seem to have a basis in fact in the at least occasional arrival of indigenous traders to the British Isles.
 
Aug 2018
600
Southern Indiana
Has anything been found in the Bay of Jars besides the jars? Does anyone know if pieces of a ship or any other artifacts have been discovered?