Pre-Columbian Contact with the New World

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,309
Portugal
#21
I agree. There is also the ancient Roman shipwreck discovered off the coast of Brazil. Though that may simply be a case of a ship getting caught in the currents and blown off course.

It would be interesting to see if the native peoples of the region have any oral traditions of encounters with outsiders who fit the description of Roman seafarers.
I don’t recall of ancient Roman shipwreck discovered (and confirmed) off the coast of Brazil, or any other country in America. I already saw some in the news but I have the idea that most were later discarded by the experts, don’t know if any could be proved as Roman. Even the one near Rio de Janeiro.

For instance in a quick net search the “most” serious that I found was this, hardly an academic post, but it gives some clues:

“Romans In Brazil During The Second Third Century?
Posted on 2003-12-11 01:37:14 by blam
Romans in Brazil During the Second or Third Century?
Ex-marine and underwater explorer/archaeologist/treasure-hunter Robert Marx states rather flatly:
Amongst my most notable discover[ies] was that of a 2nd century BC Roman shipwreck in the Bay of Guanabara, near Rio de Janeiro. This is a discovery that has received little to no examination, much less validation, from the realm of mainstream archaeology, no doubt in part because Marx is not a Ph.D. archaeologist. Scouring the web for more information about this finding, I did find a reference to the discovery in an article from Dr. Elizabeth Lyding Will, an expert on Roman amphoras (clay vessels used to store and ship goods during the Roman era). Dr. Will apparently has a piece of an amphora recovered from Marx's Brazil discovery. Of it, she says:
The highly publicized amphoras Robert Marx found in the ship are in fact similar in shape to jars produced in kilns at Kouass, on the west coast of Morocco. The Rio jars look to be late versions of those jars, perhaps datable to the third century A.D. I have a large piece of one of the Rio jars, but no labs I have consulted have any clay similar in composition. So the edges of the earth for Rome, beyond India and Scotland and eastern Europe, remain shrouded in mystery. Information about this find is practically non existent. Gary Fretz's synopsis of the "whole story" suggests that the find has been suppressed by the Brazilian government:
At the time the amphorae were confirmed to be "Roman", the large Italian faction in Brazil were extremely excited about this news. The Italian ambassador to Brazil notified the Brazilian government that, since the Romans were the first to "discover" Brazil, then all Italian immigrants should be granted immediate citizenship. There are a large number of Italian immigrants in Brazil and the government has created a tedious and costly citizenship application procedure for Italians that does not apply to Portuguese immigrants. The Brazilian government would not give in and the Italians in Brazil staged demonstrations. In response, the Brazilian government ordered all civilians off the recovery project and censored further news about the wreck hoping to diffuse the civil unrest. Finally, I've also seen mention of the following written works, which I've yet to dig up: Marx R.F., 1984 , Romans in Rio? [see Santarelli A. Mondo Sommerso 270 1983:252-3. Oceans, 17.4: 18-21.] The Romans in Rio book (?) is not among the works of Robert Marx as listed at Amazon.”

From: Romans In Brazil During The Second Third Century?

Anyway it is a theory that can be added to the already existing ones.
 
Mar 2017
3,238
United States
#24
I don’t recall of ancient Roman shipwreck discovered (and confirmed) off the coast of Brazil, or any other country in America. I already saw some in the news but I have the idea that most were later discarded by the experts, don’t know if any could be proved as Roman. Even the one near Rio de Janeiro.

For instance in a quick net search the “most” serious that I found was this, hardly an academic post, but it gives some clues:

“Romans In Brazil During The Second Third Century?
Posted on 2003-12-11 01:37:14 by blam
Romans in Brazil During the Second or Third Century?
Ex-marine and underwater explorer/archaeologist/treasure-hunter Robert Marx states rather flatly:
Amongst my most notable discover[ies] was that of a 2nd century BC Roman shipwreck in the Bay of Guanabara, near Rio de Janeiro. This is a discovery that has received little to no examination, much less validation, from the realm of mainstream archaeology, no doubt in part because Marx is not a Ph.D. archaeologist. Scouring the web for more information about this finding, I did find a reference to the discovery in an article from Dr. Elizabeth Lyding Will, an expert on Roman amphoras (clay vessels used to store and ship goods during the Roman era). Dr. Will apparently has a piece of an amphora recovered from Marx's Brazil discovery. Of it, she says:
The highly publicized amphoras Robert Marx found in the ship are in fact similar in shape to jars produced in kilns at Kouass, on the west coast of Morocco. The Rio jars look to be late versions of those jars, perhaps datable to the third century A.D. I have a large piece of one of the Rio jars, but no labs I have consulted have any clay similar in composition. So the edges of the earth for Rome, beyond India and Scotland and eastern Europe, remain shrouded in mystery. Information about this find is practically non existent. Gary Fretz's synopsis of the "whole story" suggests that the find has been suppressed by the Brazilian government:
At the time the amphorae were confirmed to be "Roman", the large Italian faction in Brazil were extremely excited about this news. The Italian ambassador to Brazil notified the Brazilian government that, since the Romans were the first to "discover" Brazil, then all Italian immigrants should be granted immediate citizenship. There are a large number of Italian immigrants in Brazil and the government has created a tedious and costly citizenship application procedure for Italians that does not apply to Portuguese immigrants. The Brazilian government would not give in and the Italians in Brazil staged demonstrations. In response, the Brazilian government ordered all civilians off the recovery project and censored further news about the wreck hoping to diffuse the civil unrest. Finally, I've also seen mention of the following written works, which I've yet to dig up: Marx R.F., 1984 , Romans in Rio? [see Santarelli A. Mondo Sommerso 270 1983:252-3. Oceans, 17.4: 18-21.] The Romans in Rio book (?) is not among the works of Robert Marx as listed at Amazon.”

From: Romans In Brazil During The Second Third Century?

Anyway it is a theory that can be added to the already existing ones.
Thank you for posting this. I will look into it in more detail. While much of the evidence is ambiguous, I still consider the Roman hypothesis promising.
 
Mar 2017
3,238
United States
#26
Olmec's came before them. Read books come in all languages.

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You are certainly entitled to your opinion. While it is possible that the Olmecs had an African origin, the evidence is inconclusive.

I must ask however, that we please keep this thread civil and take all of the evidence for and against any hypotheses into consideration.

Thank you.
 
Feb 2017
16
The place where all the movies are made
#27
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. While it is possible that the Olmecs had an African origin, the evidence is inconclusive.

I must ask however, that we please keep this thread civil and take all of the evidence for and against any hypotheses into consideration.

Thank you.


I am IN LOVE with the idea that the Olmecs were direct african descendants.


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AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,518
Lago Maggiore, Italy
#28
Vikings met someone when they reached the American continent. Those populations came from Asia millenniums before, so ...

Regarding Roman objects found in America, we should keep in mind that the Roman Empire existed for centuries and it was enormous. It's not difficult to find Roman coins even in Japan. The point is when those coins reached those far lands.

In Italy we know about a Roman sword found in Canada [Oak Isle], but we know that there are a lot of doubts about how and when that sword arrived there.
 
Mar 2017
3,238
United States
#29
Vikings met someone when they reached the American continent. Those populations came from Asia millenniums before, so ...

Regarding Roman objects found in America, we should keep in mind that the Roman Empire existed for centuries and it was enormous. It's not difficult to find Roman coins even in Japan. The point is when those coins reached those far lands.

In Italy we know about a Roman sword found in Canada [Oak Isle], but we know that there are a lot of doubts about how and when that sword arrived there.
Those some good points you bring up. It is possible that certain Roman artifacts arrived in the Americas through the medium of long distance trade.

A possible scenario being Rome traded certain artifacts with the Parthians, who traded with India, who traded with the Han Chinese, who traded with the kingdoms of Southeast Asia, who traded with Java, who traded with the Polynesians, who arrived with said artifacts in South America.

Or something to this affect...
 
Sep 2013
757
Chattanooga, TN
#30
I just saw documentary last night on history channel saying men migrated from Africa to Australia then America 200000 years ago. I guess there lying too.

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I don't think that there is any evidence that humans had migrated out of Africa as far back as 200,000 years ago.
 

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