Pre-Columbian Contact with the New World

Apr 2010
1,045
evergreen state, USA
There is or was a theory that Japanese landed in California. In this case, it was a drift across the Pacific with 2 or 3 men still alive. They were adopted by a tribe and together migrated east to become the Zuni tribe. I have a paperback book all about it, but I don't know where it is now. Anyway, it was written before DNA testing was used to prove or disprove such tales.
 
Oct 2016
139
Ashland
That is actually commonly accepted. The Inuit arrived in Alaska in 1000 AD. They were the last of the indigenous people groups to arrive in the New World.

Contact with Viking settlers and a group of invaders known as the Skraeling were recorded in the Icelandic Annals. This account is believed to describe the arrival of the Inuit in Greenland.

The Last Vikings
When Ari wrote about Erik the Red's discovery of broken boats and pots in Greenland, he was already familiar with the westward voyages of Leif Eriksson and others, who had apparently(from the Sagas) encountered both Algonquin speakers and Inuits in what is now Labrador and Newfoundland (Vinland, they called it.) Both the Norse Greenlanders and Ari lumped the originators of these artifacts to the same folk: skraelings.
There were actually two distinct cultures of those folks who reached Greenland: Dorset and Thule. The earlier was replaced. across the North, by the latter, wich also finished off the Norse settlements in Greenland.
***Thanks to all who Posted on this thread: a very interesting subject and one on which the last word is yet to be spoken.
 
Oct 2016
139
Ashland
That is actually commonly accepted. The Inuit arrived in Alaska in 1000 AD. They were the last of the indigenous people groups to arrive in the New World.

Contact with Viking settlers and a group of invaders known as the Skraeling were recorded in the Icelandic Annals. This account is believed to describe the arrival of the Inuit in Greenland.

The Last Vikings
When Ari wrote about Erik the Red's discovery of broken boats and pots in Greenland, he was already familiar with the westward voyages of Leif Eriksson and others, who had apparently(from the Sagas) encountered both Algonquin speakers and Inuits in what is now Labrador and Newfoundland (Vinland, they called it.) Both the Norse Greenlanders and Ari lumped the originators of these artifacts to the same folk: skraelings.
There were actually two distinct cultures of those folks who reached Greenland: Dorset and Thule. The earlier was replaced. across the North, by the latter, wich also finished off the Norse settlements in Greenland.
***Thanks to all who Posted on this thread: a very interesting subject and one on which the last word is yet to be spoken.
 
Mar 2016
149
US
There is or was a theory that Japanese landed in California. In this case, it was a drift across the Pacific with 2 or 3 men still alive. They were adopted by a tribe and together migrated east to become the Zuni tribe. I have a paperback book all about it, but I don't know where it is now. Anyway, it was written before DNA testing was used to prove or disprove such tales.
Do you know who California was named after?

Sent from my Alcatel_5044C using Tapatalk
 
Mar 2016
149
US
Some.of.rhe recrnt DANA studies have actually undermined the theory of contact with South America and the Polynesians. Genetic studies of the sweat potatoe indicate that the South American and Polynesian versions are quite different. After seeing Ll the stuff that washed up on the shores of North America after the Japanese tsunami, I think people are to quick to rule out natural means of transportation. There is a difference between an.unlikely event and an absolutely impossible one. Perhaps some.ancient massive storm washed a clump trees and other matter together, so if formed a kind of natural raft? Unlikely, but not necessarily impossible.

You have to look at the objects found, but those that were not found.as well.. if there was an ancient trade, why didn't thrley trade something useful like chickens? The South American had no chickens before the Spanish. You might find some prsle Columbian chicken bones in SA, but they could have just washed up on shore after a big storm.

In the case.of America and Africa, if there was trade, why didn't they trade useful items like iron objects? Donkeys, and other Old World animals and plants that became.a fixture in the Americas but not before. When someone states the plants could not have been transported by drift, the hey are stating an opinion, not necessarily actual fact. An object might have been unlikely to have been transported by natural means, not necessarily impossible.

And if a ship blown off course winds up on the other continent, it could have transported items btween to the 2, but that is not trade, if the ship couldn't return to it's home and do it repeatedly. Over thousands.of years, I am sure a some ships managed to be blown off course by some giant storm to the other continent, transporting goods between the 2, but that is not trade. The Roman ship found off Brazil shows they didn't make it back, so any trading they tried was a failure.

For all the talk of pre Columbia contact, the fact we can find some tiny Viking fishing post in North America raises the issue why we haven't found any sites for the alleged others. And we had the Viking Sagas of Vinland, while we don't have other such stories. People talk about stories allegedly someone sailing to the west, but in none of the same stories don't talk about people.actually returning from those same journeys.

Some poor unfortunate Greek or Arab sailor might have washed up on the shores of the Americas but that does not qualify as contact, since he was unable to return.

The biggest argument against Pre Columbian contact is all.the things from the.d World that became well established in the Americas after the Spanish but not before,and the reverse. Where only the Spanish smart enough to realize the potential of New World crops to transport them back to the Old World, or realize that the peoples of the Americas could use donkeys, pits, chickens, iron tools, etc.? If Pre Columbian traders existed, they must be classified as dumbest traders ever to miss out on some many opportunities.

No, the random nature of the objects found is better supported by accident shipwreck, and nature drift than the result of acfual contact and trade.
Actually there is a book in the library of Congress which details the people who lived from Canada to the most southern part's of America and they all look like black Americans with dread locks. The Dutch description of Californians, " They were black tall beautiful woman without a man in site. There streets were much cleaner than anything they had seen before.

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Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,985
Portugal
Actually there is a book in the library of Congress which details the people who lived from Canada to the most southern part's of America and they all look like black Americans with dread locks. The Dutch description of Californians, " They were black tall beautiful woman without a man in site. There streets were much cleaner than anything they had seen before.
It is not the first time that you mention "a book in the library of Congress" and yet until now you failled to provide the book's title or author or anything. This is a history forum not a a forum dedicated to pseudo-history.

Please provide the mentioned source. Thanks.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
5,204
Sydney
any half decent ship could cross the atlantic
the Phoenicians , Polynesians , Basques and others certainly could have survived the crossing
coming back would have been somewhat hazardous , it would depend on an inordinate amount of luck and competent star navigation
those who would have done it , probably didn't know were they had been and it is very possible than their stories were forgotten
 
Mar 2017
876
Colorado
This is a difficult topic to cut through to the bone. It's so compelling as "new theories destroying old" that many websites & forums stray from facts into speculation.

All the evidence is circumstantial. There are no carvings or surviving documents which support a pre-Columbian culture on one side of the world positively traveling and interacting with a culture on the oither side of the Atlantic or Pacific ... but there ARE artifacts which can only be explained by such travel.

Here's an academic article supporting the "theory" of Old World/New World travel around 300 ACE.
http://www.unm.edu/~rhristov/AncientMesoamerica1999.pdf

This isn't a reporting of cocaine in Egyptian mummmies. It's an academic analysis of results which have been independently reproduced. Conclusion: it's a fact, we don't know how it got there. To date, around 18 such mummies have been found over a 2000 yr span. There's a German university botanist that published a paper on how it's impossible that the cocaine itself had an Old World source (it's possible that the tobacco in mummies could have come from an African plant now extinct, but not cocaine).
American Drugs in Egyptian Mummies

IMHO, the most compelling evidence is DNA. I'm not sure how scientific "sino-platonic.org" is, but they published a paper that was presented at a scientific conference: "Contact and Exchange in the Ancient World" at the Univ of Pennsylvania in 2001. A summary of this paper is that there is a large body of evidence in human parasites and plant species that can only be explained by travel across the Pacific to South & Central America. There are only a couple of plant species that show exchanges between the New World and Europe/Africa, but again, only one simple explanation. This paper is loaded with academic refernces at the bottom.
http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/spp133_precolumbian_voyages.pdf

I think this summary is very fair:
"Can these findings be said to establish conclusively that early human voyagers crossed the ocean to
the Americas? Is there some explanation for the presence of the [hook] worm in the New World due to natural
forces, independent of human beings? Absolutely not. There is no alternative explanation. Modern
microbiologists continue to assure us that Darling’s assessment was correct. Ferreira, Araújo, and
Confalonieri (1982) say, “Transpacific migrants from Asia by sea must be one component of the ancient
American population.” Fonseca (1970) asserts, “shared species of parasite … make it inescapable that
voyagers reached South America directly from Oceania or Southeast Asia.” Ferreira and colleagues
(1988) agree: “We must suppose that [the human hosts for the parasite] arrived by sea.” Araújo (1988)
confirms, “The evidence points only to maritime contacts” (emphases added)."

Hook worm could not survive the Bering Strait crossing because it dies in cold.

It's the general view of the enire paper.
"Does the presence of a plant native to South America in Africa conclusively prove trans-oceanic contact? No ... but there is no other explanation."

As far as Columbus, he did not discover the Westerlies & Easterlies. He didn't randomly start out from Spain. He started from the Canary Islands off of Africa, and caught the Westerlies that were known: they usually dump travelers around Brazil and there's controversy about a possible Roman wreck there. He sailed back a more northern route catching the Easterlies & wound up in France or Northern Spain on the way back. He found references to them in older documents.
 
Mar 2017
876
Colorado
I wasn't able to find a good source, but "trade" means "exchange." There are Peruvian mummies with THC. There's plenty of cannabis in South America *NOW*, but it's native to the Middle East. This is the best I could do: a secondary reference. Research Verifies Use of Hashish, Cocaine, Nicotine in Prehistoric Cultures
I was looking for "Nicotine and Cocaine in Egyptian Mummies and THC in Peruvian Mummies: A Review of the Evidence and of Scholarly Reaction", which is listed by ResearchGate, but they don't have a posted copy. "Drugs in Ancient Populations" in "The Lancet", is supposed to have Peruvian references, but I can't find that for free either.

Here's a nice review of current state omitting drugs altogether:
Pre-Columbian Transoceanic Influences: Far-Out Fantasy, Unproven Possibility, or Undeniable Reality?

While I was looking, I stumbled across the botanical article that discusses why the New World is the only possible source for cocaine.
http://www.qucosa.de/fileadmin/data/qucosa/documents/21438/diff_fund_26(2016)2.pdf

... not so much Vikings, but the equatorial people seem to have had quite a wanderlust.