Pre-Columbian Contact with the New World

Matthew Amt

Ad Honorem
Jan 2015
2,998
MD, USA
any half decent ship could cross the atlantic
Um, NO. Sorry. Talk to people who know about sailing small ships and boats, and conditions in the Atlantic, not to mention tiny details like carrying enough provisions for a voyage of completely unknown length. That's aside from the fact that since no one knew if anything was on the other side, it's like jumping out a window without looking, and hoping you will land safely in a random pile of money. Why would they even attempt it?

the Phoenicians , Polynesians , Basques and others certainly could have survived the crossing
coming back would have been somewhat hazardous , it would depend on an inordinate amount of luck and competent star navigation
those who would have done it , probably didn't know were they had been and it is very possible than their stories were forgotten
Please, you're just making up wild speculation that flies in the face of facts. Why spin even crazier fantasies? Why not just stick to the few tidbits that are at least conceivably worthy of examination?

Matthew
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
5,259
Sydney
The Polynesians making landfall in the Americas is a serious contender ,
in the 15th Century Basque fishermen were bringing a lot of Cod from somewhere North-West each year
the duration of their fishinf season led Christopher Columbus to be certain they had found land to draw water
the critical factor ( beside not being shipwrecked in a storm ) was drinking water ,
the crew would die of thirst well before they ran out of food

in 1952 , a doctor Alain bombard ,concerned about the survival of people in small boat , crossed the Atlantic without provision or water
Alain Bombard - Wikipedia
Captain bligh and 18 men sailed 6700 km in an overloaded open launch after having been set adrift by mutineers
Thor Heyerdahl and his crew crossed the pacific in a sail rigged primitive raft
a Carthaginian captain gave account of his trip down the African coast
Malays seamen travelled ( an raided) to Madagascar
Viking sailing in open boats crossed regularly the fierce Northern latitude of the Atlantic

the ability of human to perform feat of sailmanship without modern device is quite considerable
 
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Matthew Amt

Ad Honorem
Jan 2015
2,998
MD, USA
The Polynesians making landfall in the Americas is a serious contender ,
What little I know of the Polynesians implies that they could be exceptional sailors! But their vessels were sophisticated, well-suited to their environment, and well-provisioned, plus they generally knew where they were going.

in the 15th Century Basque fishermen were bringing a lot of Cod from somewhere North-West each year
Sure, those areas were pretty well-known by that point.

in 1952 , a doctor Alain bombard ,concerned about the survival of people in small boat , crossed the Atlantic without provision or water
Nice stunt! VERY few regular sailors could have survived that way, especially if they didn't know where they were going. And as late as the 18th century, whole fleets of large, powerful, sea-going vessels could be lost in storms.

Captain bligh and 18 men sailed 6700 km in an overloaded open launch after having been set adrift by mutineers
Bligh was also an exceptional navigator, and knew where he was going. His voyage is also described as "miraculous", since most others in that situation would have died.

Thor Heyerdahl and his crew crossed the pacific in a sail rigged primitive raft
Again, with modern knowledge and proper provisioning, though I agree that he certainly proved the concept!

a Carthaginian captain gave account of his trip down the African coast
Malays seamen travelled ( an raided) to Madagascar
Right, short hops and coastal travel was perfectly normal since the Bronze Age.

Viking sailing in open boats crossed regularly the fierce Northern latitude of the Atlantic
Certainly Greenland and Markland were known to the Norse, though I think we should be careful about saying that such a crossing was normal or routine. We have no idea how many may have died in the attempt. Modern fishing boats still disappear up there. Plus there was much less open sea to cross, since "island-hopping" was possible, and in fact necessary for navigation.

the ability of human to perform feat of sailmanship without modern device is quite considerable
Absolutely! Believe me, I'm not one to sell the ancients short, by any means. But none of the wild exceptions you list come close to the concept of an ancient or medieval sailor simply heading into an unknown ocean with the hope of finding land, let alone establishing cross-Atlantic trade or colonies. Remember, before the discovery of the compass, just a day or two of cloudy weather meant that you might have no idea which direction you were facing.

"Could have" does not equal "did".

Matthew
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
6,046
Portugal
in the 15th Century Basque fishermen were bringing a lot of Cod from somewhere North-West each year
Before the 15th century the Basque, the Asturians, the Galicians and the Portuguese were finishing Cod in the North West waters. And yet we don’t know if they saw America. We have an absence of sources. It is a possibility, nothing more for now.
 
Mar 2016
149
US
It is not the first time that you mention "a book in the library of Congress" and yet until now you failled to provide the book's title or author or anything. This is a history forum not a a forum dedicated to pseudo-history.

Please provide the mentioned source. Thanks.
The book is called mysterious of ancient America. Look on you tube for Tash xi. You can only read the book in library of Congress.

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Mar 2016
149
US
It is not the first time that you mention "a book in the library of Congress" and yet until now you failled to provide the book's title or author or anything. This is a history forum not a a forum dedicated to pseudo-history.

Please provide the mentioned source. Thanks.
Also my family passed down our history and we weren't slaves until right before civil war. I'm black and my family always lived in Bay area of California even before Columbus.

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Aug 2018
337
America
The only sure people we know are the Polynesians and Vikings. In fact, Polynesians may have reached South America at about the same time the people crossing the Bering Strait did, but even without counting that, it is now pretty much confirmed that Polynesians reached the Americas in the 7th century CE. Meanwhile, Vikings reached Greenland in the 10th or 11th century and kept settlements in southern Greenland until the 15th century (they even wrote at least one saga there, the Saga of Attila) when the Inuits expelled their descendants. Other than those examples, we simply lack information. The closest is definitely the Malian attempt, which seems to have ended in failure with no further attempts by anyone else.

Speaking of the Inuit expulsion of Scandinavians, this may well have been the catalyst of Columbus's expedition. He knew about Claus Schwartz who presented a map of Greenland to the Pope after the Danish-Norwegian monarchy got news that the Inuits conquered its settlements, and Columbus then visited Iceland as a result, where he got convinced he was in an island off the coast of Asia.
 
Mar 2016
149
US
The only sure people we know are the Polynesians and Vikings. In fact, Polynesians may have reached South America at about the same time the people crossing the Bering Strait did, but even without counting that, it is now pretty much confirmed that Polynesians reached the Americas in the 7th century CE. Meanwhile, Vikings reached Greenland in the 10th or 11th century and kept settlements in southern Greenland until the 15th century (they even wrote at least one saga there, the Saga of Attila) when the Inuits expelled their descendants. Other than those examples, we simply lack information. The closest is definitely the Malian attempt, which seems to have ended in failure with no further attempts by anyone else.

Speaking of the Inuit expulsion of Scandinavians, this may well have been the catalyst of Columbus's expedition. He knew about Claus Schwartz who presented a map of Greenland to the Pope after the Danish-Norwegian monarchy got news that the Inuits conquered its settlements, and Columbus then visited Iceland as a result, where he got convinced he was in an island off the coast of Asia.
So who are the Arawaks? Who are the the black skin people the Dutch spoke of in California. Why is California named after black queen. Why is it so unbelievably that black people aren't just African when everyone else gets to German or British, or Australian. Why are black people only allowed to have African ancestry when DNA has proven we are all African. Why did slaves in America sing songs in Hebrew if they were African. Example kubaya my Lord.

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Mar 2016
149
US
What little I know of the Polynesians implies that they could be exceptional sailors! But their vessels were sophisticated, well-suited to their environment, and well-provisioned, plus they generally knew where they were going.



Sure, those areas were pretty well-known by that point.



Nice stunt! VERY few regular sailors could have survived that way, especially if they didn't know where they were going. And as late as the 18th century, whole fleets of large, powerful, sea-going vessels could be lost in storms.



Bligh was also an exceptional navigator, and knew where he was going. His voyage is also described as "miraculous", since most others in that situation would have died.



Again, with modern knowledge and proper provisioning, though I agree that he certainly proved the concept!



Right, short hops and coastal travel was perfectly normal since the Bronze Age.



Certainly Greenland and Markland were known to the Norse, though I think we should be careful about saying that such a crossing was normal or routine. We have no idea how many may have died in the attempt. Modern fishing boats still disappear up there. Plus there was much less open sea to cross, since "island-hopping" was possible, and in fact necessary for navigation.



Absolutely! Believe me, I'm not one to sell the ancients short, by any means. But none of the wild exceptions you list come close to the concept of an ancient or medieval sailor simply heading into an unknown ocean with the hope of finding land, let alone establishing cross-Atlantic trade or colonies. Remember, before the discovery of the compass, just a day or two of cloudy weather meant that you might have no idea which direction you were facing.

"Could have" does not equal "did".

Matthew
Did you know the first Hawaiian princess was a black woman. Of course not. You have to as your self questions like this. Why does scientist say the oldest skeleton in a a America is of a black woman yet we pretend black people aren't indengenous to America. K

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Mar 2016
149
US
Did you know the first Hawaiian princess was a black woman. Of course not. You have to as your self questions like this. Why does scientist say the oldest skeleton in a a America is of a black woman yet we pretend black people aren't indengenous to America. K

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Also there was no such thing as a Polynesian before Columbus. The pigmes inhabited canda down to southern America before Vikings or Columbus.

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