Pre-Columbian Trade to/from the New World

Mar 2017
878
Colorado
Read this first (from University of California Riverside -- note .edu URL):
American Drugs in Egyptian Mummies

Then look at the Balabanova video on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57gaB1VtJiQ
--- a little hyped I'm afraid.

Cocaine is "naughty" and "racy", but the significance is that there is no evidence that it has ever grown anywhere but South America. The nicotine in mummies is attributed to some tobacco species that existed in Africa, but is now extinct (no point rewriting grade school history books that state "tobacco came from the New World").

My summary: <--- YOU should read it, of course
1) The positive results of cocaine in Egyptian mummies is not in dispute. The findings have been reproduced in multiple labs in different countries. It is fact.
2) Cocaine is a very small part of the big picture.
3) Evidence of trade between Old & New Worlds, and Old World & Polynesia has been accumulating for over 100 years.
4) A new corner of archaeology ... legitimate, science based archaeology, not lecture circuit ticket sellers ... has been created to address this field.
5) ... because the old guard of archaeologists refuses to consider the possibilities.

This isn't some crazy blog, or overblown History or Discovery or BBC channel entertainment. There are just a pile of anomalous facts, that keep getting swept under the historical carpet ... and continue to accumulate. The carpet's just too lumpy now to ignore.

There's a "Bay of Jugs" in Brazil where they still occasionally turn up Roman amphora. Standard historical explanation: "a fluke ... they were blown off course" (prevailing winds go the other way: that must've been one helluva storm).

After all this time, was crazy Thor Heyerdahl correct? Remember Ra & Kon-Tiki?
 
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Tairusiano

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
2,980
Brazil
There's a "Bay of Jugs" in Brazil where they still occasionally turn up Roman amphora. Standard historical explanation: "a fluke ... they were blown off course" (prevailing winds go the other way: that must've been one helluva storm).
Roman amphora in Brazil is a tale that come in the 80's, but the funny part is that you simple cant find nothing about it inside Brasil, all the informations are from outside the country who supposedly found here a world changing discovery that no one here knows, normally with non portuguese names, like found in Bay of jugs or "Bahía de Buanabar", the closest we have is Guanabara, with lies in the middle of the city of Rio de Janeiro, if a roman ship had appeared there, the whole world and principally Brazil would know it.
Until someone has evidences like location, information, someone there showing his new findings it is only a tale, and the weakest evidence for pre-columbian contact.
 
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Mar 2017
878
Colorado
Roman amphora in Brazil is a tale that come in the 80's, but the funny part is that you simple cant find nothing about it inside Brasil, all the informations are from outside the country who supposedly found here a world changing discovery that no one here knows, normally with non portuguese names, like found in Bay of jugs or "Bahía de Buanabar", the closest we have is Guanabara, with lies in the middle of the city of Rio de Janeiro, if a roman ship had appeared there, the whole world and principally Brazil would know it.
Until someone has evidences like location, information, someone there showing his new findings it is only a tale.
I absolutely agree that it sounds like a "tale". It's suspicious that there is *NO* simple coverage of it anywhere, even Wiki. The only reason I mentioned it is because it was referenced in another scientific paper. It was just a passing remark: something like ... "The Brazilian Bay of Jugs can easily be explained as a Roman ship blown off course, there is no substantial evidence of trade."

I should've saved the reference. I wasn't thinking of a thread at the time.

It's still "anecdotal" ... maybe the writer didn't really know anything about it and was just dismissing the topic.
 

Tairusiano

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
2,980
Brazil
I absolutely agree that it sounds like a "tale". It's suspicious that there is *NO* simple coverage of it anywhere, even Wiki. The only reason I mentioned it is because it was referenced in another scientific paper. It was just a passing remark: something like ... "The Brazilian Bay of Jugs can easily be explained as a Roman ship blown off course, there is no substantial evidence of trade."

I should've saved the reference. I wasn't thinking of a thread at the time.

It's still "anecdotal" ... maybe the writer didn't really know anything about it and was just dismissing the topic.
Yes normally it is a small remark they never show the wholly information, I have a personal vendetta with this roman ship:lol: so I search it like if I have no life, as far I found it was a guy called Robert Marx, in the 80's that started this thing.
But most of the information nearly dies there.
 
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Mar 2017
878
Colorado
Yes normally it is a small remark they never show the wholly information, I have a personal vendetta with this roman ship:lol: so I search it like if I have no life, as far I found it was a guy called Robert Marx, in the 80's that started this thing.
But most of the information nearly dies there.
Obrigado, by the way.
 
Jan 2018
283
Netherlands
Roman amphora in Brazil is a tale that come in the 80's, but the funny part is that you simple cant find nothing about it inside Brasil, all the informations are from outside the country who supposedly found here a world changing discovery that no one here knows, normally with non portuguese names, like found in Bay of jugs or "Bahía de Buanabar", the closest we have is Guanabara, with lies in the middle of the city of Rio de Janeiro, if a roman ship had appeared there, the whole world and principally Brazil would know it.
Until someone has evidences like location, information, someone there showing his new findings it is only a tale, and the weakest evidence for pre-columbian contact.
Something was found, apparently, but it is not so certain that the amphorae were ancient Roman ones.
Adding to the stir, a wealthy businessman, Americo Santarelli, claimed the amphoras as his property. He said he once had taken such a liking to some ancient Sicilian amphoras that he ordered a potter in Portugal to make exact replicas. To ''age'' the jars, he said, he dropped 16 of them in Guanabara Bay in 1961, but collected only four.
NYT, June 25, 1985
 
Mar 2017
878
Colorado
Yes normally it is a small remark they never show the wholly information, I have a personal vendetta with this roman ship:lol: so I search it like if I have no life, as far I found it was a guy called Robert Marx, in the 80's that started this thing.
But most of the information nearly dies there.
Your information is dead-on: dates, Marx. Also, remember the NY Times is a factual catalogue of world events (no fake news there ... as if :) ):
RIO ARTIFACTS MAY INDICATE ROMAN VISIT - NYTimes.com
UNDERWATER EXPLORING IS BANNED IN BRAZIL - NYTimes.com
--- eee,heee,heee Cover up the tourist find of the century? I don't think so.
Roman Artifacts Discovered in Brazil | Creation Moments
--- calm down, I saw "creationmoments" too. The interesting thing is TWO amphora in 1976. Nothing to do with Marx. I'll try chasing that.

Oh dear! I've been sucked into the rabbit hole, but I couldn't resist this "paranormal" website: https://www.thoughtco.com/history-mystery-ancients-in-america-2593550

Do you know anything about these?
"Near Rio de Janeiro, high on a vertical wall of rock - 3,000 feet up - is an inscription that reads: "Tyre, Phoenicia, Badezir, Firstborn of Jethbaal..." and dated to the middle of the ninth century B.C.

Near Parahyba, Brazil, an inscription on Phoenician has been translated, in part, as: "We are sons of Canaan from Sidon, the city of the king. Commerce has cast us on this distant shore, a land of mountains. We set [sacrificed] a youth for the exalted gods and goddesses in the nineteenth year of Hiram, our mighty king. We embarked from Ezion-Geber into the Red Sea and voyaged with ten ships. We were at sea together for two years around the land belonging to Ham [Africa] but were separated by a storm [literally 'from the hand of Baal'], and we were no longer with our companions. So we have come here, twelve men and three women, on a... shore which I, the Admiral, control. But auspiciously may the gods and goddesses favor us!
""
 
Mar 2017
878
Colorado
Something was found, apparently, but it is not so certain that the amphorae were ancient Roman ones.
That pretty much takes care of it, I think. Explains 2 in 1976, and more in 1982. Done. What is Historum for if not to collect facts?

We're stuck with a Roman sword of questionable provenance on Oak Island (what the heck would they be doing way up there?).
 
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Tairusiano

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
2,980
Brazil
Your information is dead-on: dates, Marx. Also, remember the NY Times is a factual catalogue of world events (no fake news there ... as if :) ):
RIO ARTIFACTS MAY INDICATE ROMAN VISIT - NYTimes.com
UNDERWATER EXPLORING IS BANNED IN BRAZIL - NYTimes.com
--- eee,heee,heee Cover up the tourist find of the century? I don't think so.
Roman Artifacts Discovered in Brazil | Creation Moments
--- calm down, I saw "creationmoments" too. The interesting thing is TWO amphora in 1976. Nothing to do with Marx. I'll try chasing that.

Oh dear! I've been sucked into the rabbit hole, but I couldn't resist this "paranormal" website: https://www.thoughtco.com/history-mystery-ancients-in-america-2593550

Do you know anything about these?
"Near Rio de Janeiro, high on a vertical wall of rock - 3,000 feet up - is an inscription that reads: "Tyre, Phoenicia, Badezir, Firstborn of Jethbaal..." and dated to the middle of the ninth century B.C.

Near Parahyba, Brazil, an inscription on Phoenician has been translated, in part, as: "We are sons of Canaan from Sidon, the city of the king. Commerce has cast us on this distant shore, a land of mountains. We set [sacrificed] a youth for the exalted gods and goddesses in the nineteenth year of Hiram, our mighty king. We embarked from Ezion-Geber into the Red Sea and voyaged with ten ships. We were at sea together for two years around the land belonging to Ham [Africa] but were separated by a storm [literally 'from the hand of Baal'], and we were no longer with our companions. So we have come here, twelve men and three women, on a... shore which I, the Admiral, control. But auspiciously may the gods and goddesses favor us!
""
The phoenician writing is suposed to be in Pedra da Gavea Rio de Janeiro, that some says it is a Sphinx, the problem of the writing is that people climb it everyday, and they never found the writing there.
There is a text in wikipedia in case you wanna read about it, but personally I think the "phoenician text" has more chances of being true than the roman ship, but it is only a opinion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeological_interest_of_Pedra_da_Gávea
 
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