pre historic learned civilization, second urbanisation [no Aryan theory plz]

Mar 2019
1,535
KL
#1
second urbanisation seems to now have become nothing but a colonial notion which is earnestly towed by some indian and western historians when defining indian history. For instance i have recently come across evidences which seem to predate the so called second urbanisation

  1. many archaeological excavations especially from city of kausambi has revealed the date of city going back to the second millennium fortification going back to 1025-955 BC
  2. Pataliputra may even predate kausambi city based on analysis of one scholar such as Dieter Schlingloff that it used wooden ramparts and fortifications when brick fortifications were already employed by the ancient cities of ganges valley such as kausambi from 1000-800 BC, so pataliputra using wooden fortifications may have even gone beyond well into the second millennium BC
  3. the northern black polished ware pottery occured in 700 BC and it emerged from the present region of magadha, indicating urbanisation esp in eastern india since NBPW was an important indication of elites in an urbanised society affording such luxury
  4. the minting of indian coins started a little earlier than 600 BC or in the seventh century, if india was urbanised only in the fifth century this goes in contradiction to earlier occurrence of coins in india, it should be noted that coins in india were not influenced by any other regions, it was an independent innovation which means, indians were probably getting urbanised back then
  5. many scholars argue that vedas couldn't have been composed without writing them down, given their state of preservation, the recent archaeological evidence of writing of prakrit and tamil in pot sherds from fifth century indicates a wide spread literacy even in 500 BC
  6. some of the earliest scholars/philosophers are from india, Parshvantha of jainism probably from varanasi and Yajnavalkiya and aruni from patna, bihar from the 9th or 8th century have been declared as historic figures indicates that india was churning out scholars from atleast 900 or 800 BC.
  7. some scholars also state that the state of preservation of rigveda couldn't have been possible without written system, since the state of vedas is different compared to oral traditions of the greeks or epics of homer for instance where the state was not accurately maintained.
  8. foundries in the gangetic plain and MP have been found to have started mass producing iron as early as 1400 BC with their base lying as early as 1800 BC, this again goes against the notion that there was no urbanization.
  9. It is said that cloves and ppper corns were traded with western asia as early as 1400 BC as well, pepper corns are found in the tomb of egyptian phroah in the 1200 BC, this indicates either a vast network of trade from south india or an indian ocean trade going back to the second millennium BC
  10. not to mention mitanni inscriptions from 1450 BC which clearly indicates indian influence, which must have resulted due to growth of indian urbanisation and trade activities if we discard the myth of aryan migration for an instance.
  11. Kosambi palace itself is dated from 8th century BC, indicating a much earlier urbanisation compared with 600 BC
these clear evidences do indicate an earlier date of eastern indian urbanisation but i think it challenges few western and colonial assumptions
  1. aryan theory, aryans came to india in 1500 BC at the frontier regions, but eastern india already shows urbanisation in the second millennium BC, this debunks aryan theories, more time is needed for urbanisation to take place
  2. megasthene observation and greek sources, the western scholarship heavily relies on assumptions on indian history based on western sources and making assumptions, despite these greek sources cannot be adequately relied atleast for defining indian histories
  3. Buddhist sources only emerge in 500 BC, now the new revision back tracks it to 400 BC, backtracking it means influences from western asia and europe can be justified
  4. linking indian abugeda system with persian abjad and linking brahmi as nothing but derivative of arahmaic script and kharoshti as well, even though there is clear evidence of tamil brahmi as early as 5th century BC through prakritic and tamil inscribed pot sherds which ready indicates brahmi has evolved into sub categories like tamil brahmi etc.
 
Last edited:
Sep 2016
552
天下
#2
Title: no Aryan theory plz
  1. aryan theory, aryans came to india in 1500 BC at the frontier regions, but eastern india already shows urbanisation in the second millennium BC, this debunks aryan theories, more time is needed for urbanisation to take place
Umm, if you don't want others to touch the topic of "Aryan theories", then why do you write about it yourself?
 
Likes: Tulius

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,648
New Delhi, India
#4
Not that I am interested in Kaushambi (my interest is in migration from Central Asia) but how can one talk about Kaushambi and omit mention of Aryans. :D
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,349
Australia
#5
Not that I am interested in Kaushambi (my interest is in migration from Central Asia) but how can one talk about Kaushambi and omit mention of Aryans. :D



Aupy ! ... you said the forbidden ' A word ' ! :angry:


I have been finding out a LOT about Central Asia lately . That is, more than I knew last time we talked . It appears a lot of my ' Specul8in ' was correct ! I'm just waiting for the right subject thread to come up . ;)

This is a goodie ;

Origins of the Bronze Age Oasis Civilization in Central Asia — Fredrik Talmage Hiebert | Harvard University Press
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,648
New Delhi, India
#6
USD 45. That decides it for me. I will wait for your comments. Is the information available anywhere else for free? I want things on platter free for me, like the Linux Mint that I am using now? I will search. :D

You re right, Specul8, when the Aryans moved West or North, they did not have the problem of arid expanses. When they moved East, it had to be from Oasis to Oasis - either a Branch from Samara/Sintshta or keeping close to the coast of Caspian Sea. That is perhaps how the Mittani reached Iraq. That is why the Eastern Movement was the last of all. Actually, we can see in a Google (or any other) map as to where the Aryans may have hopped from one oasis to another till they reached the hot land of India. Some adjusted, other returned to cooler mountains, as even a modern will do. In my case I wonder why my great-grandfather moved from Srinagar to Jodhpur and not to some place in Himachal Pradesh or Uttarkhand which have better climate.

One more thought. As you know Indian mythology divides the world known to them into seven islands (Dwipas), like Shaka Dwipa, Kumud Dwipa and Jambudwipa (which being India). I am intrigued by the similarity of 'dwipa' with 'Depe' or 'tepe', Yaz Depe, Ulugh Depe and others. Is is possible that the two words have the same derivation? We would describe an oasis like an island of greenery in the desert. Perhaps Aryans too used it in a similar sense.

Note: Ashok Mourya wil not like Aryan discussion in his Koushambi thread, so let us move to some other place.
 
Last edited:
Mar 2019
1,535
KL
#7
aup, i request you please put aside your aryan theories which i have already mentioned should be excluded from this thread, either present archaeological proofs from the sites i listed or please dont post in this thread.
 
Apr 2019
406
India
#8
USD 45. That decides it for me. I will wait for your comments. Is the information available anywhere else for free? I want things on platter free for me, like the Linux Mint that I am using now? I will search. :D

You re right, Specul8, when the Aryans moved West or North, they did not have the problem of arid expanses. When they moved East, it had to be from Oasis to Oasis - either a Branch from Samara/Sintshta or keeping close to the coast of Caspian Sea. That is perhaps how the Mittani reached Iraq. That is why the Eastern Movement was the last of all. Actually, we can see in a Google (or any other) map as to where the Aryans may have hopped from one oasis to another till they reached the hot land of India. Some adjusted, other returned to cooler mountains, as even a modern will do. In my case I wonder why my great-grandfather moved from Srinagar to Jodhpur and not to some place in Himachal Pradesh or Uttarkhand which have better climate.

One more thought. As you know Indian mythology divides the world known to them into seven islands (Dwipas), like Shaka Dwipa, Kumud Dwipa and Jambudwipa (which being India). I am intrigued by the similarity of 'dwipa' with 'Depe' or 'tepe', Yaz Depe, Ulugh Depe and others. Is is possible that the two words have the same derivation? We would describe an oasis like an island of greenery in the desert. Perhaps Aryans too used it in a similar sense.

Note: Ashok Mourya wil not like Aryan discussion in his Koushambi thread, so let us move to some other place.
Then I guess we should stop bashing desi pseudo-scientists because Vedic people surely had 'vimanas' and 'missiles'. That's why we don't find their trails in any archeological sites. They were hovering over land of Bharata untill Sudas fired his guided missiles(that he acquired after performing 1000 years tapa from Indra) and evaporated all of Harappans and other Gangetic people.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,644
Portugal
#9
aup, i request you please put aside your aryan theories which i have already mentioned should be excluded from this thread, either present archaeological proofs from the sites i listed or please dont post in this thread.
I don't know if it is possible, but you can request a moderator to delete in your first post the mention to the word that cannot be mentioned here or otherwise open another thread without mentioning that word that is forbidden in this thread. If not it will be difficult to answer to the OP.
 

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