Provisional IRA during the Troubles: Freedom fighters or terrorists?

Opinion of PIRA?

  • Freedom fighters/heroes

    Votes: 5 16.1%
  • Terrorists

    Votes: 26 83.9%

  • Total voters
    31

GogLais

Ad Honorem
Sep 2013
4,951
Wirral
#44
It wasn't the British that treated the catholic minority badly in NI for so long, it was the devolved NI government. Just like in the US, where the southern states used the law to oppress the black population, NI used the law to discriminate against Catholics. The civil rights movement in the US sparked off a similar civil rights movement in NI, and just as in the US, where the federal government forced the states to change, the UK government forced the NI government to give equal rights to catholics.

The tragedy of NI is that whereas blacks in the US were pushing for equality, the IRA weren't interested in equality, they wanted to force Irish unification with violence. The British government pretty much dealt with the civil rights problems by mid 1970; the violence really kicked off after that.
Very fair summary - sorry if that’s sounds patronising! It’s a pity that British governments of both parties seem to have taken no serious interest in NI until violence broke out.
 
#45
Maybe my opinion means nothing.

The issue is that You didn't brought any counter-argument to what I said, You just repeated what You said before.
If you have a reading issue I can't help you, below the "your opinion doesn't mean anything because .........." I wrote why you've not understood my point.

If you've not comprehended it or didn't bother to read it then I'm not sure how I can help further?
 
Oct 2013
13,528
Europix
#46
If you have a reading issue I can't help you, below the "your opinion doesn't mean anything because .........." I wrote why you've not understood my point.

If you've not comprehended it or didn't bother to read it then I'm not sure how I can help further?
Maybe I do have comprehension problems.

I simply pointed You that You didn't brought a counter-argument to what I said, You simply repeated Your idea.

Let me try again: terrorist and terrorism aren't the people and phenomenon that invaders are calling as such.

Terrorism is a way of achieving a goal. Someone isn't a terrorist or freedom fighter because me or You are calling like him that, but because of the way he is choosing in trying to achieve his goal.

A terrorist remains a terrorist. That an oppressor or invader calls him "terrorist" doesn't make him suddenly a "freedom fighter".
 
Sep 2013
1,441
Ulster
#47
It wasn't the British that treated the catholic minority badly in NI for so long, it was the devolved NI government. Just like in the US, where the southern states used the law to oppress the black population, NI used the law to discriminate against Catholics. The civil rights movement in the US sparked off a similar civil rights movement in NI, and just as in the US, where the federal government forced the states to change, the UK government forced the NI government to give equal rights to catholics.

The tragedy of NI is that whereas blacks in the US were pushing for equality, the IRA weren't interested in equality, they wanted to force Irish unification with violence. The British government pretty much dealt with the civil rights problems by mid 1970; the violence really kicked off after that.
 
Sep 2013
1,441
Ulster
#48
Catholics refused to play a part in the running of things seeing that as propping up the unionist government. However, some Catholics did come forward and wished to play a role but they were attacked by their own people.


In 1964 a journalist with the Dublin based Irish Times, Michael Viney, visited Ulster to write a series of articles. In writing about the '' New Voices '' in the Catholic community Viney cited the example of J.J. Campbell, a senior lecturer at St Mary's College ( a Catholic teacher training institution ), and Brian McGuigan, a solicitor. They had appealed to the Northern Ireland government to make greater efforts to get Catholics to accept nominations to public boards because they felt there was now a greater willingness to serve. A few years earlier Dr. G.B.Newe had urged his fellow Catholics to allow people to participate in public life, from which they had previously excluded themselves.

The reaction to the latest initiative of Campbell and McGuigan by the Catholic establishment was very negative. The Catholic Derry Journal editorial said that '' Mr J.J.Campbell and Mr Brian McGuigan of Belfast have been amongst the most assiduous exponents of a policy of appeasement of the Stormont Government, to the limit of the obsequious and even, as many must have felt, beyond it. '' Michael Viney also found that they had been called '' Castle Catholics '' begging crumbs from the Government table '' and commented; .. It seems to me nonsensical to complain on one hand of discrimination and non-representation and then to belittle with nods, winks, and sighs the gesture these two men have made. If it is dishonourable, as a Catholic, to sit on a statutory committee, then why complain of non-representation ? Irish Times 5 May 1964 .

A couple of weeks later John Hume was invited to write a two-part article for the Irish Times under the title The Northern Catholic. Hume deplored the bitterness of the attacks on Campbell, McGuigan and Newe and bemoaned the fact that '' Disagreement with, or criticism of, the nationalist approach - or lack of it - inevitably brings down upon one's head a torrent of abuse. ' Obsequious ', ' Crawling ', ' Castle Catholic ', ' West Briton ', are samples of the terms used. '' He also urged Catholics to play '' a fuller part in public life ''

This was, in political terms, the least successful part of his article. The crime of Campbell, McGuigan and Newe had been to suggest that the Catholic community might have been in some way to blame for their poor representation on statutory bodies by vilifying any Catholic who allowed himself to be nominated. It was politically unacceptable to suggest that anybody but the Unionists were at fault. By identifying himself with such an approach Hume had made a political mistake, which he was soon to rectify. 1964 saw this self-critical argument buried without trace. In future '' discrimination '' was to be the key word.
 
Sep 2013
1,441
Ulster
#50
Also all police and security personnel in NI in the 1960s were entirely Protestant.
Not quite true. Certainly the majority were but there were Roman Catholic policemen some of whom were murdered by the IRA. Also Catholics joined the UDR and the first two to join were a Catholic and Protestant. Sean Russell was also a Catholic who joined the UDR but the IRA murdered him in front of his wife and children and that meant a lot of Catholics resigned ...but not all. Same when NI was formed. A third of places ( equal to their numbers in the country ) was reserved in the RUC for Catholics but it was never taken up.
 
Likes: robto