Prussia acquires Alsace-Lorraine in 1815

Feb 2019
599
Serbia
#21
Okay I'll take back the "all" and say "many". With the USSR referring specifically to the fall of the Russian Empire, not Communism(and I don't think Communism existed per Marx's writings). Also seeing successful "Communist" revolutions only happen in agrarian societies and never in industrial ones, the "elsewhere" is limited to non great powers who are basically harmless, unlike the USSR. Even with China without the USSR things likely end up much better as Stalin was an influence on many of the practices that caused death and destruction there as well.

Huge difference between Fascism(which was inevitable) and what ended up happening in the 1930s and 1940s. I'm not saying the 20th century would be some magical utopia without problems, heck it could be worse given the butterfly effect who knows all I know is the most notorious issues of our timeline couldn't have happened without the French's desire to undo the status quo of 1870. With Russia in particular France recruited Russia into the alliance that got the regime overthrown.
At this point we can speculate and end up with just guesses as an alternate WWI or even no WWI can end up with anything. We can see a communist France if Germany wins, as with the Paris Commune in 1871, though this will likely be much larger. If Russia doesn't enter the alliance with France they would likely be intimidated by Germany still and would likely suffer political problems. They already had a revolution during the Russo-Japanese War. I think that saying that all would be well if France doesn't make form the Entente is a bit naive. It might be well, it might be better, it might be worse. We can't know.

@Visigoth Panzer France isn't alone in this, and is even one of the better ones in regards to this. If we look at Germany for an obvious example we all know what happened in the 1930s and how mad they were for WWI. Italy too was disappointed after WWI. Most Fascist countries also had some bitterness or revanchism in the interwar period. To this day we still have bitterness in Eastern Europe over WWII, feeling grief for wars that were global losses and damaged your country severely is not unusual and far from specific to France.

Were the losses not high? In WWI France had its industrial northern parts occupied and suffered a colossal amount of damage in both men and material, in WWII they were fully occupied and we all know this already I believe. They don't treat it like a ''global tragedy'' either, have they formed a military alliance against Germany post WWII? Does the grief over wars dominate French politics or is felt more than other nations today?

As for occupation zones: From 1815 to 1818 France was split into 10, 9 occupation zones and free French territory. This came after over 2 decades of global warfare that cost France many men and resources, the population was war-weary and the political order was fragile with half a century of instability and a new government every so often, France survived this pretty alright. If Germany could survive its conditions in the 20th century what makes you think France couldn't?
 
Jun 2017
2,879
Connecticut
#22
At this point we can speculate and end up with just guesses as an alternate WWI or even no WWI can end up with anything. We can see a communist France if Germany wins, as with the Paris Commune in 1871, though this will likely be much larger. If Russia doesn't enter the alliance with France they would likely be intimidated by Germany still and would likely suffer political problems. They already had a revolution during the Russo-Japanese War. I think that saying that all would be well if France doesn't make form the Entente is a bit naive. It might be well, it might be better, it might be worse. We can't know.

@Visigoth Panzer France isn't alone in this, and is even one of the better ones in regards to this. If we look at Germany for an obvious example we all know what happened in the 1930s and how mad they were for WWI. Italy too was disappointed after WWI. Most Fascist countries also had some bitterness or revanchism in the interwar period. To this day we still have bitterness in Eastern Europe over WWII, feeling grief for wars that were global losses and damaged your country severely is not unusual and far from specific to France.

Were the losses not high? In WWI France had its industrial northern parts occupied and suffered a colossal amount of damage in both men and material, in WWII they were fully occupied and we all know this already I believe. They don't treat it like a ''global tragedy'' either, have they formed a military alliance against Germany post WWII? Does the grief over wars dominate French politics or is felt more than other nations today?

As for occupation zones: From 1815 to 1818 France was split into 10, 9 occupation zones and free French territory. This came after over 2 decades of global warfare that cost France many men and resources, the population was war-weary and the political order was fragile with half a century of instability and a new government every so often, France survived this pretty alright. If Germany could survive its conditions in the 20th century what makes you think France couldn't?
And the history just shows that Communist revolutions in industrial countries don't work. Does that mean they CAN'T work? Not necessarily but there is a reason dozens of countries have went Marxist and every single one was agrarian. And how would Communist France be the threat the USSR was? While after WWI it was a great deal more defensive as opposed to Franco-Prussia the reason the French so aggressively pursued allies in the East(manufacturing half a continent of them) was their low population and the knowledge they could not beat Germany in a one on one fight. France's power both after Franco-Prussia and after WWI came in the form of coalition building(or in the case of WWI everyone going isolationist at the same time) as she'd lost the ability to wield traditional power during Franco-Prussia and likely before(it's like the Suez incident with the Brits you probably lost your power before you realize you did).

You're right about the Tsar's regime facing pressure regardless. However for the USSR in particular to rise up WWI was necessary. WWI created a situation where the public would not accept any regime that did not end the war immediately and where no traditional regime(as in one that believed in the concept of national interest) could accept Brest-Litovsk. But Marxists viewed Russia as a base from which to stage world wide revolution and were able to promise on something I doubt very strongly another regime could have delivered. Remember Communism wasn't chosen by the Russian people, not at the ballot box not by revolution not even within the countries Socialist movement(Bolsheviks) were a minority it was chosen by the refusal of all the more popular alternatives to end the war. So yeah the Tsar might go down but without WWI the replacement would be Social Democrats, conservative anti monarchists, a constitutional monarch, something other than the Soviets.

We can't know generally(again who knows the consequences of peace unless they happen?) but in terms of these specific things that happened yes we can.

In terms of the would be Axis powers the settlement of Versailles was considerably more harsher on all parties involved than the settlement of Franco-Prussia. Germany gets the attention but Hungary for example had it much much worse. The Treaty of Trianon makes the Treaty of Versailles look like a slap on the wrist by comparison, Hungary lost pretty much everything(they'd had a sweet deal after 1867 and much of the conflict in the empire was the result of the Hungarians trying to keep the exclusivity of that deal at the expense of other groups), Slovakia and Croatia had been part of Hungary for about 1000 years at that point and the country all of a sudden had trade barriers and borders restricting their movement into well over half of their traditional land. There is a reason among all the Axis belligerents the Hungarians fought the fiercest.

Italy were also among the winners they were mad because they were bribed to enter the war and didn't get most of the bribe cause the international community chose that exact moment to decide that was wrong. Italy's role in WWI was vital if she'd joined the Central Powers France would have been screwed and there would have been more Hapbsurg soldiers available for all the other fronts. Given the amount of people Italy lost and how important her role in the war they had a good case. Also with them and the Japanese it wasn't just tangible stuff at Versailles they were treated pretty badly. At the beginning it was advertised as"the big five" by the end it was "the big three" and that was because they insulted the Japanese by refusing to acknowledge them as racial equals. You can say that doesn't matter and that's modern stuff inserted to it, no, the Allies made actual real world concessions in China(that infuriated China's population and started riots might even be what turned Mao Zedong into a Communist given I think it was the same year)in exchange for not having to recognize the Japanese as racial equals. Imagine negotiating with someone and them giving up a chunk of China to maintain the right to be racist towards you? Yeah you win, but that isn't going to leave a good taste in one's mouth, and then there's whole Washington thing where the UK were to abandon them to prevent the US from building a larger navy that they could build anyway at any time and eventually did, and there was no reason except maintaining the delusion they had the world's largest navy even if it was a tie, US wasn't a threat but they gave up a major ally in the name of maintaining a symbolic meaningless superlative. The Italians were also made fun of pretty bad and while that was partly their fault(Orlando brought up how everyone was part of the Roman empire once and you can only imagine the reaction to that) it certainly contributed to the sentiment. Dislike of the Italian delegation was one of the main things that brought the Americans, French and British together. And that might be on the Italian people for picking such an unlikable Prime minister(he looks like a crazy scientist from a cartoon).
 
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