Prussia advances onto Vienna in 1866

pikeshot1600

Ad Honorem
Jul 2009
9,958
@Futurist,

In re post #18, Russia in the 1860s was an expansionist power. Central Asia was the dish of the day, but Russia had not given up on its interest in becoming either the controller, or the dominant force, of the Straits of Constantinople. (This lasted until an agreement in 1915 that Britain and France would give the Straits to Russia in the event of victory in WW I. That was dashed by the Revolution.)

I don't think adding Galician Poles to the Russian Empire would have been considered an advantage.
 
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pikeshot1600

Ad Honorem
Jul 2009
9,958
Ironic that while Bismarck wanted good ties with Russia, he ironically did the one thing that helped ruin German-Russian ties--specifically choosing Austria over Russia in the 1879 Dual Alliance.
Bismarck created complex diplomatic arrangements. Austria was AFAIK a secondary insurance policy in case his preferred choice of keeping friends with Russia did not succeed long term. He was a complicated man, but he understood that "success is never final."

German-Russian relations were ruined not by Bismarck but by the lapse of the Reinsurance Treaty of 1887. After Bismarck's departure from government (1890), the German foreign policy establishment let the agreement lapse, allowing Russia and France to grow closer together and to formally ally in 1894.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,922
SoCal
@Futurist,

In re post #18, Russia in the 1860s was an expansionist power. Central Asia was the dish of the day, but Russia had not given up on its interest in becoming either the controller, or the dominant force, of the Straits of Constantinople. (This lasted until an agreement in 1915 that Britain and France would give the Straits to Russia in the event of victory in WW I. That was dashed by the Revolution.)

I don't think adding Galician Poles to the Russian Empire would have been considered an advantage.
Galicia had not only Poles, but also lots and lots of Ukrainians. Russians considered Ukrainians to be a part of the Triune Russian Nation.

Bismarck created complex diplomatic arrangements. Austria was AFAIK a secondary insurance policy in case his preferred choice of keeping friends with Russia did not succeed long term. He was a complicated man, but he understood that "success is never final."
So that explains it!

German-Russian relations were ruined not by Bismarck but by the lapse of the Reinsurance Treaty of 1887. After Bismarck's departure from government (1890), the German foreign policy establishment let the agreement lapse, allowing Russia and France to grow closer together and to formally ally in 1894.
Had Germany continued to renew this treaty however long Russia desired it, would Russia have never allied with France?

I seem to recall that Wilhelm II and his Chancellor Caprivi had an issue with the secret commitments in this treaty.
 

pikeshot1600

Ad Honorem
Jul 2009
9,958
@Futurist ,

^^ Well, the Poles in Galicia were predominant in the political elite. They were the ones who mattered and they were the ones who Russia would have to deal with. Peasants counted for much less in the late 1800s - especially in eastern Europe.

As far as Russia-France in the 1890s, France was the best option strategically for Russia. It likely would have happened sooner or later.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
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SoCal
@Futurist ,

^^ Well, the Poles in Galicia were predominant in the political elite. They were the ones who mattered and they were the ones who Russia would have to deal with. Peasants counted for much less in the late 1800s - especially in eastern Europe.
A massive literacy campaign organized by the Russian government could help with this, though. That would allow these Ukrainians to evolve in a mold favorable to Russia and perhaps even to outright become Russians.

As far as Russia-France in the 1890s, France was the best option strategically for Russia. It likely would have happened sooner or later.
What was Bismarck's plan if this would have indeed occurred? Ally with Britain?
 

pikeshot1600

Ad Honorem
Jul 2009
9,958
@Futurist,

In re your post #25, Bismarck's plan regarding Russia-France (allied 1894) would have been irrelevant as he was gone from the government in 1890. Britain in the 1890s was not interested in allying with any continental European power. Russia, an autocratic monarchy, and realizing that Germany was a former partner, allied with the liberal French Republic out of strategic necessity.
 
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pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,513
I seem to recall that Wilhelm II and his Chancellor Caprivi had an issue with the secret commitments in this treaty.
The Entire reinsurance treaty was secret. The Chancellor had problems with secret treaties, and when he learnt of it he saw it was secret to maintain the Austrian Allaicne.

As the Auystrian Allaince was the public treaty I wouyld say the Austrian allaince was the main allaince, the the insureance russian treaty the back up.

I think the quote from Caprivi was juggling threes balls might have been good for Bismark but 1 is good enough for me.

The 2nd in command of the OFriegn Affairs minister was a devoted anti-Russian and he had a lot of influcnce, beiung veyr well entrenched with ministers coming and going above him, and his own network reporting to him.
 
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Kotromanic

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
4,978
Iowa USA
K, I checked again and pages 254-255 contain the relevant information. They quote Bismarck as saying that Wilhelm wanted to annex Bohemia, Austrian Silesia, et cetera. Of course, Engelberg challenges Bismarck's account of this--arguing that Bismarck wanted to portray the German military in a bad light due to his later anger towards them.
Appreciate that you got the source, thank you.

I'd say that separating the "shade" from the actual events would likely be a challenge when dealing with the Iron Chancellor's memoir, sure.
 
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