qara khitai genealogy question

Sep 2016
570
天下
There is a long-standing policy here not to permit genetics threads/posts which in the past have led to gross violations of civility and respect when chauvinism raises its ugly face. The Mod Team will be watching closely threads like this one, so keep it on track.
Umm, I don't want to question mods or anything, but what does this thread have to do with genetics?
 
Jun 2013
195
ca
I was able to re-open the pdf, so have no idea why you're having a problem with it

also, I see questions about how particular people might be related as an aspect of history
 
Jun 2013
195
ca
if you still have a problem with it, below is a text version:


Yelu
I
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I I
Yelu (son) Yelu (daughter) m. Xiao
I I
Yelu Dashi m. Xiao Tabuyan
 
Sep 2012
1,116
Taiwan
Quite so. We're discussing family histories and relationships; nothing to do with genetics, haplogroups or DNA, or even ethnicity. How was x person related to y; in this case, was Xiao Tabuyan Yelu Dashi's cousin? It is a question firmly rooted in the interpretation of textual sources. One historian, Michal Biran, has made a claim that they were cousins, yet we are not entirely sure why and how; the Chinese sources do not seem to mention this fact, yet she seems quite insistent on it. She cites Arabic sources which may or may not corroborate her statement, and the question deserves further discussion. It's entirely possible that they were cousins, although it would be nice to understand how this conclusion was reached. And I think most all of us in this thread were around prior to the ban on threads about genetics - which were especially rife in this particular subforum -, and I'd wager that none of us would like to see those ugly discussions return again. This, demonstrably, is not one such discussion, and I'm sure we wouldn't partake in it if it were. To be quite frank, I'd like to hope the staff had a little more faith in us and our knowledge of the site's rules.
 
May 2009
1,315
Didn't both clans intermarry anyway? So Xiao men still took Yelu wives. So if Dashi had a Yelu aunt who married a Xiao male, wouldn't that make a child of theirs still his paternal cousin?
Was it a two-way proposition? I assumed Yelu men got Xiao women but not vice-versa. You could be right then. I'm not sure how that agreement worked.
 

Asherman

Forum Staff
May 2013
3,405
Albuquerque, NM
Norenaq is a new member who may not be as familiar with the rules as a member in as long standing as yourself.
 
Sep 2012
1,116
Taiwan
Was it a two-way proposition? I assumed Yelu men got Xiao women but not vice-versa. You could be right then. I'm not sure how that agreement worked.
I believe so; according to Holmgren and Biran (Cooke Johnson probably discusses it too, but I don't have time to check it this second). I don't know off hand how exclusive the arrangement was, especially as the families branched out and other political marriages came into play. But the emperors' immediate families usually seem to intermarry with the Xiao clan, both sons and daughters. KeenEdge should know a lot about it, I believe this is his area.

Norenaq is a new member who may not be as familiar with the rules as a member in as long standing as yourself.
He has been here for six years.
 
Sep 2016
570
天下
Was it a two-way proposition? I assumed Yelu men got Xiao women but not vice-versa. You could be right then. I'm not sure how that agreement worked.
Oh, they did. Among the 14 known daughters of Shengzong as many as 12 married Xiao men.

And it wasn't limited to the immediate Imperial family either, as Zhanmugun, daughter of Guiyin, a 6th generation descendant of Yelu Yundeshi through his second son Yanmugu married Xiao Shulizhe, 5th generation descendant of Xiao Aguzhi.
 
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