Reconstruction of war junks of 16CE

Dec 2018
65
Singapore
#43
Mostly because I haven't seen Dajiangjunpao listed among naval armament of any period (throughout Ming Dynasty). It's was mostly either Fagong, Wudi Dajiangjunpao (the giant breechloading gun), or Red Barbarian cannon during later period.

I don't think there was any particular reason they couldn't use Dajiangjunpao on a ship, they just didn't. Dajiangjunpao (the iron version) was first designed in 1585 to defend against the nomads in the north. By that time, the Japanese pirates were already dealt with, Yu Dayou already passed away, and Qi Jiguang was fired from his job. The next time Ming Dynasty faced significant naval challenge, they already had access to Red Barbarian cannon.

EDIT
I was wrong when I assume Wankouchong as lightweight. A Wankouchong dated to 1553 found in Quanzhou weighs 160kg.
The bronze one, yes. Those could be used on warships.
OK. To summarize above mentioned:
1. You are talking about Iron Dajiangjunpao have not been used on ship. However Bronze Dajiangjunpao are listed among naval armament- please confirm if I understand you correctly. Then I can re-paint my guns.
2. I believe that in absence of any standardization, and with leasing-gun's practice it is very difficult to talk about "common" or "typical" gun - most probably ships were armed with any available guns from armory.
3. To avoid misunderstanding in terminology I will provide pictures and names of gun (as I understand it)- for you to check/confirm.

Huo chong 火銃
Huochong - hand cannons.-Yuan_dynasty.jpg


Wankou chong 碗口铳

firearms.jpg gun2 of Yuan dynasty (1271–1368)..jpg

Bronze Dajiangjunpao (bigger /longer than Wankou chong )
Ming general gun4.jpg Long range Gun of Ming dynasty.jpg v2-f3fdb5c934674ce2d5ade61d68c83b9d_r.jpg

Iron Dajiangjunpao (大神銃 ?) "great divine cannon"
Dajiangjunpao.jpg Chinese cannon.jpg iron-cannon-in-the-ancient-city-walls-the-ancient-chinese-military-facilities-have-rich-nostal...jpg

To be continued...
 
Last edited:
Dec 2018
65
Singapore
#44
Ops. You already answered...:)

OK I continue:

Folangji" (佛郎機 (Frankish) guns
Ming_bronze_cannon.JPG gun of magical-machine-batellion Ming 15CE.jpg v2-3e52e0f774bc851203b0a592dff6fc2c_hd.jpg


Invincible great general (Heavy Folangji) (?)
Ming Cannon.jpeg Invincible_great_general_1571_field_artillery.png view1.gif

Fa Gong (?) (?)
Fagong_ heavy cannon 1565.png any description? photos? survival pieces?

Hongyipao red barbarian cannons (紅夷炮
ancient-chinese-cannon-city-wall-52131836.jpg canon-chinois-antique-26649519.jpg
What have i missed? What is incorrect?

Please correct me if I make mistakes here
 
Last edited:
Jul 2015
282
Japari Park
#46
OK. To summarize above mentioned:
1. You are talking about Iron Dajiangjunpao have not been used on ship. However Bronze Dajiangjunpao are listed among naval armament- please confirm if I understand you correctly. Then I can re-paint my guns.
2. I believe that in absence of any standardization, and with leasing-gun's practice it is very difficult to talk about "common" or "typical" gun - most probably ships were armed with any available guns from armory.
3. To avoid misunderstanding in terminology I will provide pictures and names of gun (as I understand it)- for you to check/confirm.
Yes.

Wankouchong typically look like this:
130305111534641.jpg

Ops. You already answered...:)

OK I continue:

Folangji" (佛郎機 (Frankish) guns
View attachment 18547
You are correct. This picture I think is a Japanese cannon, based on the same model.

Invincible great general (Heavy Folangji) (?)
View attachment 18551
Correct. I think this picture is a purely European gun though, Mary Rose cannon probably.

Correct. Only late Ming version that look no differently from red barbarian cannon survived.

Hongyipao (紅夷炮)
Please correct me if I make mistakes here
You're correct.
 
Last edited:
Jul 2015
282
Japari Park
#47
Those classifications can be helpful as well - when translated :)
View attachment 18554 View attachment 18555
I will try:
Ming general guns2.jpg
(note that chinese books are read from right to left, and top to bottom, so I will translate likewise)


竹節長頸破落戶五把 - Five Zhujie Changjing Poluohu (竹節長頸破落戶 - translates to "Bamboo sectioned, long-necked Poluohu' gun).
"破落戶/Poluohu" literally means rascals or poor families that have seen better days, but in this case it is possibly a loanword from some unknown foreign language. First time I've seen this, actually.

(Any idea on names of cannon that start with "P"? I can only think of "Petard", but it doesn't rhymes with "Poluohu")

弘治間掌印指揮王珊毀失一把 - One destroyed and lost during the time when Wanshan , commander during the reign of Hongzhi emperor, held office.

矮將軍二把 - Two Aijiangjun (矮將軍 - literally translates to "Short general") <<< short as in a short person. 王珊毀失一把 - One destroyed and lost under Wanshan
飛鎗六把 - Six Feiqiang (飛鎗 - literally translates to "Flying gun") 王珊毀失三把 - Three destroyed and lost under Wanshan
手銃四十把 - Forty handgonnes. 王珊毀失二十七把 - twenty-seven destroyed and lost under Wanshan. 上俱銅火銃 - above are all bronze gun
竹節長頸破落戶四把 - Four Zhujie Changjing Poluohu
大將軍二把 - Two Dajiangjunpao
賽將軍二把 - Two Saijiangjun (which roughly translates to "(cannon) that can match up to Dajiangjun")
碗口四把 - Four wankouchong


Ming general guns.jpg
These are examples of the bronze Dajiangjunpao.

Top-right: 無敵大將軍/Wudi Dajiangjun or "Invincible Great General (Cannon)" <<<<<<<< This is the "oversized breechloading gun".
Bottom-right: 大將軍/Dajiangjun or "Great General (Cannon)"
Top-left: 二將軍 /Erjiangjun or "Second General (Cannon)"
Bottom-left: 三將軍/Sanjiangjun or "Third General (Cannon)"

Note that "Great General", "Second General' and "Third General" are essentially different class of the same cannon type. In modern usage we generally call all of them Dajiangjunpao. AFAIK all surviving bronze dajiangjunpao are of the smaller type.

Unfortunately, the cannons are listed without context, so I don't know if any of them were used on naval ship.
 
Last edited:

Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,664
United States
#48
Perrier? That was a breechloader I think though.

On the other hand poluohu might come from like Malay or something. Brings to mind the balahu-chuan ship which takes its name from Malay perahu.
 

Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,664
United States
#50
Thank you for your reply. Just one small clarification- I believe that guns on thus picture are rather Zhankou chong (盏口铳) [cup-sized muzzle cannon], when Wankou chong (碗口銃 ) is bowl-sized muzzle cannon.
My understanding is those are different names for the same gun, is that true?
 

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