Reconstruction of war junks of 16CE

Dec 2018
65
Singapore
#51
I will try:
View attachment 18561
(note that chinese books are read from right to left, and top to bottom, so I will translate likewise)


竹節長頸破落戶五把 - Five Zhujie Changjing Poluohu (竹節長頸破落戶 - translates to "Bamboo sectioned, long-necked Poluohu' gun).
"破落戶/Poluohu" literally means rascals or poor families that have seen better days, but in this case it is possibly a loanword from some unknown foreign language. First time I've seen this, actually.

(Any idea on names of cannon that start with "P"? I can only think of "Petard", but it doesn't rhymes with "Poluohu")

弘治間掌印指揮王珊毀失一把 - One destroyed and lost during the time when Wanshan , commander during the reign of Hongzhi emperor, held office.

矮將軍二把 - Two Aijiangjun (矮將軍 - literally translates to "Short general") <<< short as in a short person. 王珊毀失一把 - One destroyed and lost under Wanshan
飛鎗六把 - Six Feiqiang (飛鎗 - literally translates to "Flying gun") 王珊毀失三把 - Three destroyed and lost under Wanshan
手銃四十把 - Forty handgonnes. 王珊毀失二十七把 - twenty-seven destroyed and lost under Wanshan. 上俱銅火銃 - above are all bronze gun
竹節長頸破落戶四把 - Four Zhujie Changjing Poluohu
大將軍二把 - Two Dajiangjunpao
賽將軍二把 - Two Saijiangjun (which roughly translates to "(cannon) that can match up to Dajiangjun")
碗口四把 - Four wankouchong


View attachment 18562
These are examples of the bronze Dajiangjunpao.

Top-right: 無敵大將軍/Wudi Dajiangjun or "Invincible Great General (Cannon)" <<<<<<<< This is the "oversized breechloading gun".
Bottom-right: 大將軍/Dajiangjun or "Great General (Cannon)"
Top-left: 二將軍 /Erjiangjun or "Second General (Cannon)"
Bottom-left: 三將軍/Sanjiangjun or "Third General (Cannon)"

Note that "Great General", "Second General' and "Third General" are essentially different class of the same cannon type. In modern usage we generally call all of them Dajiangjunpao. AFAIK all surviving bronze dajiangjunpao are of the smaller type.

Unfortunately, the cannons are listed without context, so I don't know if any of them were used on naval ship.
Thank you again for your kind help with translation. Now I am thinking if my guns on Junk were Erjiangjun or Sanjiangjun Pao? Assume that biggest gun could be too heavy for Junk of that size.
 
Dec 2018
65
Singapore
#52
My understanding is those are different names for the same gun, is that true?
May be. Those guns usually both referred as a bigger variant of Huo chong (火銃 ).
But my understanding, that difference is in mouse shape of barrel (please see below), and therefore different types of projectiles, and different tactical usage.
Zhankou (cup-shaped muzzle) mortar.jpg gun2 of Yuan dynasty (1271–1368)..jpg
 
Jul 2015
282
Japari Park
#53
Thank you again for your kind help with translation. Now I am thinking if my guns on Junk were Erjiangjun or Sanjiangjun Pao? Assume that biggest gun could be too heavy for Junk of that size.
Since Wudi Dajiangjun (the oversized breechloading gun) and Fagong were used on warships, even smaller ones (some smaller warships actually mount heavier cannon, such as Fagong, than main warship), there's no reason to assume they couldn't.

There are records of "Bronze general" being mounted on "scout ship (actually a small warship)" - Bronze general should be the umbrella term for Bronze Dajiangjunpao type, but no mention of their weight/size

I also think Zankouchong and Wankouchong can be used interchangeably.
 
Dec 2018
65
Singapore
#54
Since Wudi Dajiangjun (the oversized breechloading gun) and Fagong were used on warships, even smaller ones (some smaller warships actually mount heavier cannon, such as Fagong, than main warship), there's no reason to assume they couldn't.
There are records of "Bronze general" being mounted on "scout ship (actually a small warship)" - Bronze general should be the umbrella term for Bronze Dajiangjunpao type, but no mention of their weight/size
To decide if any big size gun is suitable for ship- its weight and recoil need to be considered. Any ideas about actual sizes of any of those guns?
From pictures I have provided (see above) Iron Dajiangjun guns looks too big for 25m Junk. I have assumed in design that smaller versions also were available - which probably could be called Erjiangjun or Sanjiangjun Pao .
 
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Jul 2015
282
Japari Park
#57
To decide if any big size gun is suitable for ship- its weight and recoil need to be considered. Any ideas about actual sizes of any of those guns?
From pictures I have provided (see above) Iron Dajiangjun guns looks too big for 25m Junk. I have assumed in design that smaller versions also were available - which probably could be called Erjiangjun or Sanjiangjun Pao .
There are records of Vietnamese people mounting two giant red barbarian cannons capable of sinking Dutch ship onto a boat of roughly 35m long x 2.5m wide. While ship design does matter a lot, I don't see why a Dajiangjunpao (which is only 1/2 ~ 1/4 the weight of a Red barbarian cannon) can't be mounted on a small ship.

I have missed two new names of guns- new for me. Any information about those guns?
No idea. There are four guns in the list that I can't recognize. Fei Qiang is likely a handgonne though.
 
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Dec 2018
65
Singapore
#58
There are records of Vietnamese people mounting two giant red barbarian cannons capable of sinking Dutch ship onto a boat of roughly 35m long x 2.5m wide. While ship design does matter a lot, I don't see why a Dajiangjunpao (which is only 1/2 ~ 1/4 the weight of a Red barbarian cannon) can't be mounted on a small ship.
Thanks for reply. Unfortunately, this is not enough information.
How big was "giant" gun? What was weight (or length) ratio between Bronze Dajiangjunpao /Iron Dajiangjunpao/ Wudi Dajiangjunpao/ Erjiangjun / Sanjiangjun /Hongyipao?
I will
need to look into this further.
 
Jul 2015
282
Japari Park
#59
Thanks for reply. Unfortunately, this is not enough information.
How big was "giant" gun? What was weight (or length) ratio between Bronze Dajiangjunpao /Iron Dajiangjunpao/ Wudi Dajiangjunpao/ Erjiangjun / Sanjiangjun /Hongyipao?
I will
need to look into this further.
What I meant to say is that it is possible to mount the heaviest gun onto a relatively small ship. Exact dimension is not mentioned, but the Chinese describes theses Vietnamese cannons as "giant" red barbarian cannons (Vietnamese did cast some pretty massive superguns).

Both Wudi Dajiangjun and Dajiangjunpao are usually listed at 1050 jin or 620 kg, but there are Dajiangjunpao as light as 260+ jin (153kg). Surviving dajiangjunpao are on the lighter side, presumably sanjiangjun or lesser, but we don't know how they scale up in relative to the heavy pieces.


Question to everybody- any rules about painting and decorations of Junks? Any traditions?
Most commonly seen in period artworks and paintings are white hull, red border, black at the top part of the hull, and "waterfowl eyes". There SEEMS (I am not entirely certain) to be two separate traditions when it comes to painting the ships - the Baicaochuan 白艚船 common in Fujian which was white, and Wucaochuan 烏艚船 common in Dongguan and nearby Guangzhou which was black. However, Shachuan was from Jiangsu/Shanghai and not belong to either.


T90057002010120416375774_z.jpg
 
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Dec 2018
65
Singapore
#60
Most commonly seen in period artworks and paintings are white hull, red border, black at the top part of the hull, and "waterfowl eyes". There SEEMS (I am not entirely certain) to be two separate traditions when it comes to painting the ships - the Baicaochuan 白艚船 common in Fujian which was white, and Wucaochuan 烏艚船 common in Dongguan and nearby Guangzhou which was black. However, Shachuan was from Jiangsu/Shanghai and not belong to either.
Latest info I have found recently - the bottom of most ocean going junks was white as a result of usage of anti-fouling putty sometimes called chunam - a mix of lime, poisoned wood oil and chopped hemp - which makes it appear white painting.
Black top was typical for Navy ships of Qing dynasty.
The Nemesis destroying Chinese war junks during the Second Battle of Chuenpi, 7 January 1841, ...jpg
Merchant and pirate ships have used various paint schemes
Chinese Junk Boat  Pith Painting 19 AC.jpeg Keying Hand-coloured lithograph, 1847.jpg P0DN05.jpg Chinese pirates.jpg
For Ming I don't know the rules, but have noticed that high rank officials have used highly decorated ships.
Kangxi-Imperor on inspection.jpg Wanli Emperor (1573–1620) enjoying a  boat ride on a river.jpg

I think that my next project will be white bottom and black top (with some other colors)
 

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