Remains of around 150,000 Roman era refugees found the Netherlands

Dec 2015
63
Lansing Michigan
"Asylum seekers"??? Never heard it called THAT before! It was always called an INVASION in the "before time"!!! The time before the P.C. people made everyone so scared of being called a racist they go along with things that will result in their OWN DEATHS rather than be thought of as a 'bad person'! 'asylum seekers' BAH!
 

beorna

Ad Honoris
Jan 2010
17,473
-
maybe some additions to the figures. I wrote it before, 430.000 people (about 110.000 warriors) need a territory of about 100.000 sq.km. That's a region bigger than Hesse, NRW and Rhineland-Palatia. Even if we would say 50,000 sq-km, the region would be 2.5 times gigger than Hesse or as big as NRW and Hesse together. What's with all the other known Germanic tribes?

Caesar has suggested to settle the Usipites and Thenkteri at the Ubii. If we would accept the 430.000, then such plan would be like to put all Chinese into britain. The Usipites and Thenkteri had agreed into Casars plan. They knew how big the UBian territory was. They hadn't agreed if they really had been 430,000 people.

When the Usipites and Thenkteri tried to cross the Rhine, the Menapii stopped them. We have a figure from Caesar about the Menapian military strength, namely 9,000 men. Hard to believe 110.000 Germanics weren't able to defeat 9000 Menapians.

Caesar's army has 8 legions plus auxiliarii, the 5000 men cavalry. It is not easy to estimate caesar's armies, cos they didn't allways had the theoretical figure of about 5000 men. But if we tske it, we would get 45,000 men. Compared to other figures of Caesar's armies we could even expect less than 40,000. It is hard to believe, that an army of 110,000 Germanics got defeated by Caesar's 40-45,000 men, which faced even nearly no losses.

It is impossible to say, how many people the Usipites and Thenkteri were, if the figure of Caesar is partly right, then we should rather expect 43,000 than 430,000. It would give an army of about 10,000 warriors. It would explain, why the Usipites and Thenkteri couldn't easily defeat the menapii, it would explain, why Caesar's army of 40-45,000 men was able to defeat the Germanics, who even had their whole troops available and a figure of 43,000 would just make a territory necessary of about 10,000 sq.km, which is e.g. half of Hesse.
 
Dec 2015
255
Hamadan
When the Usipites and Thenkteri tried to cross the Rhine, the Menapii stopped them. We have a figure from Caesar about the Menapian military strength, namely 9,000 men. Hard to believe 110.000 Germanics weren't able to defeat 9000 Menapians.
Defending a river crossing is a different thing than fighting a battle in open field.

Caesar's army has 8 legions plus auxiliarii, the 5000 men cavalry. It is not easy to estimate caesar's armies, cos they didn't allways had the theoretical figure of about 5000 men. (...) Compared to other figures of Caesar's armies we could even expect less than 40,000. It is hard to believe, that an army of 110,000 Germanics got defeated by Caesar's 40-45,000 men, which faced even nearly no losses.
Caesar never had problems with enemies 2 - 3 times more numerous than his forces.

Even in civil wars against other Romans he defeated more numerous armies with few losses.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,375
T'Republic of Yorkshire
BTW - what is the logistics of the current movement of 1 - 1.5 million people to Germany alone (and many more to other parts of the EU)?:

Migrant crisis: Germany heads for 1 m asylum-seekers in 2015 - BBC News

Germany expects up to 1.5 million asylum seekers in 2015, says report | World news | The Guardian

Also, these 1 million - 1.5 million people are mostly young males, unlike the Tencteri and the Usipetes, who travelled with entire families.
If you intend to discuss the Romans, discuss the Romans. If you want to discuss the migrant crisis in Europe, there are other threads for it.

In addition to that, the thread title is unnecessarily provocative and inappropriate. I have edited it.
 

beorna

Ad Honoris
Jan 2010
17,473
-
Defending a river crossing is a different thing than fighting a battle in open field.

Caesar never had problems with enemies 2 - 3 times more numerous than his forces.

Even in civil wars against other Romans he defeated more numerous armies with few losses.
well, the problem with the figures in Caesar's BG is, that we have them only (mainly) from Caesar. So how strong were the Helvetii really. 263,000 as Caesar wrote or 158,000 from another source? How many Belgae stood in front of Bibrax, how many Nervii, Atrebates and Viromandui fought with Caesar? In that battle e.g. Caesar fought with 2 legions each against the Nervii, the Atrebates and the Viromandui. But he mentioned before, that the Atrebates had 15,000, the Viromandui 10,000, but the Nervii even 50,000 warriors. Is that possible? I doubt that. Against Ariovist Caesar was even superiour in troops.
 
Feb 2013
1,021
It has recently been confirmed, that the site in southern Netherlands, in which lots of human bones and items have been coming out of the ground for the last years, is where the battle against asylum seekers / refugees belonging to two barbarian peoples - the Tencteri and the Usipetes - took place in 55 BC. About 150,000 people were slaughtered by the Roman army under Julius Caesar. It took place near what is now the city of Kessel:
Julius Caesar battlefield unearthed in southern Netherlands | World news | The Guardian
Usipetes - Wikipedia
Could be something like this:
================================
Edit:
The massacre of the Usipetes and Tencteri - Ancient Warfare - Karwansaray Publishers
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,938
Well this topic is interesting in that it can give us some benchmark for ancient (or at least Julius') figures....

Has it been established by now, how many people were actually killed ? Since JC seems to report 450 000 and the intial estimate was 150 000 (not sure if that one still stands) then old JC seemed to apply a multiple of 3 at least (as recently as WW2, such multiples where also common especially on the german side)......

Hence his other claims can be discounted by at least 2 thirds (which will give figures that are much more consistent with ancient population levels and logistics)
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,938
Caesar never had problems with enemies 2 - 3 times more numerous than his forces.

.
Or more precisely, Caesar CLAIMED to have defeated numerous times ennemies that had vastly superior numbers... We dont have evidence for such claims. it is rather bizarre that most winners of ancient battles (those who wrote account) consistently claim to have been heavily outnumbered (see greeks against persians, Alexander the Great against persians, etc...)... It is almost as if being more numerous was a serious disadvantage.... (if we are to take such claims at face value)....