Removal of Confederate statues and flags?

Code Blue

Ad Honorem
Feb 2015
3,533
Caribbean
I don't know about it being a bad word but it's certainly anathema to the pursuit of knowledge, no matter how well-intentioned it is.
I don't think that is correct.

When the Catholic Church invented the word it meant spreading what the Church insisted officially was the truth. It is only the more recent and frequent association of the word with Nazi's and Communist (as in "agitprop") that it became associated with false information and inaccurate opinions - and that is why one current dictionary says information "especially of a biased or misleading nature."

As an "anathema to the pursuit of knowledge," well, the person intentionally deceiving may well be pursuing knowledge, even if it is only to "cherry pick" facts.

Are we really supposed to lend credence to Edward Pollard's explanation of slavery as a great blessing
INo. (And I'll take "lending" as a figure of speech).
Look at the quote that was in my signature line when you responded. A very bright and pithy fellow encapsulated the development of "propaganda" applying it to socialists, but it applies to slave owners as well. That said, Pollard was exaggerating, but it would also be an exaggeration to say that slavery offered zero benefit to the slave. There was surely no warm and welcoming world awaiting a slave just handed walking papers. In addition to the dangers of the natural world, "enlightened"" Massachusetts who freed the slaves with the first sentence of its 1781 Constitution had a 1787 law providing for the flogging of black immigrants. Jim Downs' "Sick of Freedom: African-American Illness and Suffering during the Civil War and Reconstruction" chronicles, among other things, the humanitarian disaster that followed the Emancipation Proclamation.

And just as there is a body of pro-slavery "propaganda," there is body of anti-southern "propaganda."
 
Last edited:
Jul 2016
797
Dengie Peninsula
In Britain, we are currently passing through a period of removing memories of anyone involved in the "Slave" trade. Demands for statues to be pulled down, Bristol University wants to change the name of one of its founders. Liverpool University students do not want their establishment to be associated with the slave trade, despite the founder of the university apparently being involved. It is HISTORY for god's sake, just get on with it!
 

Chlodio

Ad Honorem
Aug 2016
2,998
Dispargum
"In Britain, we are currently passing through a period of removing memories of anyone involved in the "Slave" trade. Demands for statues to be pulled down, Bristol University wants to change the name of one of its founders. Liverpool University students do not want their establishment to be associated with the slave trade, despite the founder of the university apparently being involved. It is HISTORY for god's sake, just get on with it!"

One way we can use history is as a source of inspiration, but then we need to be careful of what we take inspiration from. It's a good example for us to follow if someone worked hard, made a lot of money, and when they died and no longer needed their fortune they left it for the betterment of society. But there's also a lesson in there about what we do with our lives. Some career choices are better than others. A big part of the debate about the Confederate statues is "Do we want to draw inspiration from these people?"
 
Feb 2013
4,180
Coastal Florida
I don't think that is correct.

When the Catholic Church invented the word it meant spreading what the Church insisted officially was the truth. It is only the more recent and frequent association of the word with Nazi's and Communist (as in "agitprop") that it became associated with false information and inaccurate opinions - and that is why one current dictionary says information "especially of a biased or misleading nature."

As an "anathema to the pursuit of knowledge," well, the person intentionally deceiving may well be pursuing knowledge, even if it is only to "cherry pick" facts.
I could write an entire book on the philosophical concepts of truth and knowledge. However, in brief, I'll just say I really don't think the more recent controversies about things like barn problems are all that big of obstacles and there really isn't a problem with the conventional conception of knowledge as justified true belief. Hence, if one has adopted a belief that is "biased or misleading", he has not apprehended knowledge...rather, he's apprehended what's merely a biased or misleading belief. Further, I don't believe we are all entitled to our own set of knowledge. There is only one set of knowledge and everyone shares it. To me, it seems people often believe they have apprehended knowledge when, in fact, they've merely adopted opinions they wish to believe.

INo. (And I'll take "lending" as a figure of speech).
Look at the quote that was in my signature line when you responded. A very bright and pithy fellow encapsulated the development of "propaganda" applying it to socialists, but it applies to slave owners as well. That said, Pollard was exaggerating, but it would also be an exaggeration to say that slavery offered zero benefit to the slave. There was surely no warm and welcoming world awaiting a slave just handed walking papers. In addition to the dangers of the natural world, "enlightened"" Massachusetts who freed the slaves with the first sentence of its 1781 Constitution had a 1787 law providing for the flogging of black immigrants. Jim Downs' "Sick of Freedom: African-American Illness and Suffering during the Civil War and Reconstruction" chronicles, among other things, the humanitarian disaster that followed the Emancipation Proclamation.

And just as there is a body of pro-slavery "propaganda," there is body of anti-southern "propaganda."
Right. So it was better for the slave to remain a slave because it was possible for an ex-slave to experience racial discrimination. Obviously, there are all sorts of ways to justify slavery. And as for Pollard "exaggerating"...I don't think so. Rather, he was telling his audience exactly what he wanted them to believe. Albeit, he couldn't really keep his story straight, but then, the folks who were receptive to his propaganda probably weren't reading it too critically.
 

Code Blue

Ad Honorem
Feb 2015
3,533
Caribbean
Further, I don't believe we are all entitled to our own set of knowledge.
That sounds very close to - only thought-police approved propaganda? A lot of will merely roll over to let someone control our sets of knowledge - no matter how much YouTube keeps deleting the accounts of people I find informative. :p

Right. So it was better for the slave to remain a slave because it was possible for an ex-slave to experience racial discrimination.
Is there a name for that tactic? Because I know I never posted that.
 
Last edited:
Feb 2013
4,180
Coastal Florida
That sounds very close to - only thought-police approved propaganda? A lot of will merely roll over to let someone control our sets of knowledge - no matter how much YouTube keeps deleting the accounts of people I find informative. :p
Don't be ridiculous. Here's a simple illustration of the concept: it merely means the moon can not be made of both rocks and cheese at the same time.

Is there a name for that tactic?
Paraphrase

Because I know I never posted that.
Oh no...you just implied slavery provided some benefit to the enslaved and then highlighted ways in which a freed slave might suffer after being freed. It seems pretty clear that the overall implication was that it would be better to remain a slave.
 
Last edited:
May 2018
335
Michigan
In Britain, we are currently passing through a period of removing memories of anyone involved in the "Slave" trade. Demands for statues to be pulled down, Bristol University wants to change the name of one of its founders. Liverpool University students do not want their establishment to be associated with the slave trade, despite the founder of the university apparently being involved. It is HISTORY for god's sake, just get on with it!
Are they advocating the removal of any monuments to Banastare Tarleton? From what I understand, he was something of a hometown hero in Liverpool.
 
Last edited:
May 2018
335
Michigan
"In Britain, we are currently passing through a period of removing memories of anyone involved in the "Slave" trade. Demands for statues to be pulled down, Bristol University wants to change the name of one of its founders. Liverpool University students do not want their establishment to be associated with the slave trade, despite the founder of the university apparently being involved. It is HISTORY for god's sake, just get on with it!"

One way we can use history is as a source of inspiration, but then we need to be careful of what we take inspiration from. It's a good example for us to follow if someone worked hard, made a lot of money, and when they died and no longer needed their fortune they left it for the betterment of society. But there's also a lesson in there about what we do with our lives. Some career choices are better than others. A big part of the debate about the Confederate statues is "Do we want to draw inspiration from these people?"
Americans draw inspiration from the Founding Fathers, and we have monuments (such as the Washington monument) to men who owned slaves. Hell, many of the great Greek philosophers owned slaves, as did Julius Caesar and Caesar Augustus. Julius Caesar has a casino named after him (Caesar's Palace).

Gasp! When will this travesty be addressed! Slave owners should not have casino named after them!

Judging an individual for merely one aspect of their existence, particularly one that was completely legal at the time, seems a bit unfair. If that is the case, we need to take down monuments to William Ewart Gladstone, a Victorian "Liberal Lion", since his family made its fortune in the slave trade. From what I understand, Scots mock the Duke of Wellington by putting a traffic cone on his statue (which I, as someone generally favorable toward Wellington, actually think is hilarious!). The Iron Duke, an ardent Tory, was against slavery and used his Peninsular War reputation to push Spain to abolish the slave trade.
 

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