Removal of Confederate statues and flags?

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Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,566
Republika Srpska
The Southern cause was vile; yet possibly at that time only the educated and wealthy were fully aware of the true causes, as specified in the statements upon secession. Many men appear to have fought - bravely- simply to defend what they saw as their hearths and homes.
Yes and no. It is true that the Southern soldier really did believe they were fighting for their homes, but they also knew that they were fighting to preserve slavery. In fact, Confederate leaders deliberately spread this message. For example, Georgia Governor Joseph E. Brown spread this sentiment by saying:
"Slavery is the poor man's best government. Among us the poor white laborer is respected as an equal. (...) The Negro is in no sense his equal... He belongs to the only true aristocracy, the race of the white men."

and stuff like

"It is sickening to contemplete the miseries of our poor people under these circumstances. They now get higher wages for their labor than the poor of any other country on the globe. Most of them are now landowners and they are now respected...Abolish slavery...and you very soon make them all tenants and reduce their wages to the smallest pittances that will sustain life."

Thing is, many non-slaveholding Southerners fully supported slavery because of white supremacy and because they felt that, as long as the blacks are slaves, they would be independent.
 
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Feb 2011
1,091
Scotland
Yes and no. It is true that the Southern soldier really did believe they were fighting for their homes, but they also knew that they were fighting to preserve slavery. In fact, Confederate leaders deliberately spread this message. For example, Georgia Governor Joseph E. Brown spread this sentiment by saying:
"Slavery is the poor man's best government. Among us the poor white laborer is respected as an equal. (...) The Negro is in no sense his equal... He belongs to the only true aristocracy, the race of the white men."

and stuff like

"It is sickening to contemplete the miseries of our poor people under these circumstances. They now get higher wages for their labor than the poor of any other country on the globe. Most of them are now landowners and they are now respected...Abolish slavery...and you very soon make them all tenants and reduce their wages to the smallest pittances that will sustain life."

Thing is, many non-slaveholding Southerners fully supported slavery because of white supremacy and because they felt that, as long as the blacks are slaves, they would be independent.
Wouldn't some of them be anti slavery themselves?; if the governor felt they needed shoring up in that view especially so. Wouldnt removal of slavery also increase the free labourer's prospects in the labour market?
 

Code Blue

Ad Honorem
Feb 2015
4,291
Caribbean
well they got the US via the slave trade. It's an inherent, arguably the most elemental, facet of their history in the USA.
So why erase it? Embrace it. Recognise it for what it is - and work towards a better society.
I am not sure why my post would be quoted in as the basis of this. My post did not include the word or idea "erase." Quite the contrary, my post argued that sound opinions were based on an abundance of information, not a lack thereof.

To be clear, my post insisted - If you need to be angry, be angry at the right people, not the wrong people. US history is already rife with too many examples of politicians generating wars and civil strife based on getting a critical mass of Americans angry at the wrong people. But then you knew that, right?
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,566
Republika Srpska
Wouldn't some of them be anti slavery themselves?; if the governor felt they needed shoring up in that view especially so. Wouldnt removal of slavery also increase the free labourer's prospects in the labour market?
Indeed yes. The wealthy class did fear that the whites of the lower class would start to oppose the slave system so they played up the fears of many poorer whites, fears like losing independence, increasing competition from free blacks and eventually just used plain racism.

In fact, this is what one Alabamian white had to say about the prospects of ending slavery:
"I wouldn't like to hev 'em freed, if they was gwine to hang 'round. They ought to get some country, and put em war they could be by themselves. It wouldn't do no good to free 'em and let 'em hang round, because they is so monstrously lazy; it they hadn't got nobody to take keer on 'em, you see they wouldn't do nothin' but juss nat'rally laze round, and steal, and pilfer and no man couldn't live, you see, war they was - if they was free, no man couldn't live. (...) Now, just suppose you had a family of children, how would you like to hev a niggar feelin' just as good as a white man? How'd you like to hev a niggar steppin' up to your darter? Of course you wouldn't; and that's the reason I wouldn't like to hev 'em free, but I tell you, I DON'T THINK IT'S RIGHT TO HEV 'EM SLAVES SO"
 
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Code Blue

Ad Honorem
Feb 2015
4,291
Caribbean
Yes and no. It is true that the Southern soldier really did believe they were fighting for their homes,
And where would they get an idea like that? Because they were standing on their land watching an army coming down the road to burn down their house, take their crops and their horses? Because everyone of them already knew what Lincoln did to the people and politicians of Baltimore - before Bull Run?

IMO, there is a disconnect or even complete disconnect between the stated causes and unstated causes for which politicians and what the poor bastard in the trenches is doing, about to face the working end of killing machines is thinking and feeling. You ought to stop trying to connect what is disconnected.

I don't know how old you are, so I don't which examples to give, but ca 1990 a "nurse" from Kuwaiit went on '60 Minutes' so-called "news" show, and after that testified before the UN, to claim that Iraqi soldiers were flipping over Kuwaiti incubators. If you knew that this was the same story that "Tommy" was told about the "Huns" in 1914, you might have been suspicious right away. You would not have needed to wait until after the First Gulf War to find out she was not just a nurse, and in this case, not a nurse at all. (BTW, if you lie to the UN and cause a war in which hundreds of thousands are killed and maimed, is that perjury, a war crime? lol)

Betgo,
Why don't you give me a percentage? If you could interview 1,000 men from Pickett's Army on the morning of July 3, 1863 and asked them -
"Are you gong to "charge" (I call it a "march") across that field of death so that Jefferson Davis can continue to own slaves? -
what percentage would have said, "Yes"? My guess is zero, or it would round off to zero? What's your guess?
 
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notgivenaway

Ad Honorem
Jun 2015
5,745
UK
well, they thought it was right. And it's what happened. Should then any monument depicting a past wrong be
I am not sure why my post would be quoted in as the basis of this. My post did not include the word or idea "erase." Quite the contrary, my post argued that sound opinions were based on an abundance of information, not a lack thereof.

To be clear, my post insisted - If you need to be angry, be angry at the right people, not the wrong people. US history is already rife with too many examples of politicians generating wars and civil strife based on getting a critical mass of Americans angry at the wrong people. But then you knew that, right?
your post was a jumbled mess.
 
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Jul 2018
307
London
The commitment and the sacrifices of the men who fight are always to be commended as long as they don't commit, or strive not to commit, war crimes. Even commanders, though being part of the people who actually are taking most of the decisions, deserve acknowledgement of their military prowess, if any.
Different matter is the interaction of social and political causes at the root of every war; which in turn still different from what is reported in the press and diffused by propaganda.
I made a video on this a long time ago. If someone is interested I link it below.
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,566
Republika Srpska
Because everyone of them already knew what Lincoln did to the people and politicians of Baltimore - before Bull Run?
You act like Baltimoreans were innocent. Lincoln had to protect his capital and his life.
 

Code Blue

Ad Honorem
Feb 2015
4,291
Caribbean
You act like Baltimoreans were innocent. Lincoln had to protect his capital and his life.
I tend to act like no one's innocent. That's why I posted earlier that I don't like statutes to ANY politicians. And by no stretch the imagination is it legally "his" capital, any more than Maryland is "his."
 
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