Rigveda on Conquest of India by Vedic Aryans.

Status
Closed
Oct 2015
1,059
India
#81
The 9th verse is what caught my attention for it says "car and wagon": "List quickly, Sisters, to the bard who cometh to you from far away with "car and wagon"

Now "cars" or chariots are used by warriors but not "wagons". By "wagon" I understand a bullock-cart with a covered seating area.

@Aupmanyav you are from Rajasthan and should be able to recall that even some 50 years back we could see wagon-trains carrying full tribes of Banjaras (i.e. including women & children). Banjara migrations were seasonal in which one could see trains of about 50-150 wagons either travelling on modern metalled roads or parked adjacent for the evening cooking / night rest. However, the point is that wagons are used not for battles but long-distance travel. The hymn cited also uses the words "cometh to you from far away" and bulls as well.

Maybe I am imagining too much, but we need a perfect translation. Here is a pic similar to wagon used by Banjaras of Rajasthan:

bullock-cart.jpg
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,487
New Delhi, India
#82
Yeah, Rajeev, bullock carts or camel carts. Aryans too moved from one place to another in search of land and livelihood. Aryans were familiar with camels too from Central Asia - Zarath-ushtra.

 
Likes: Rajeev
Mar 2013
972
Breakdancing on the Moon.
#84
I've heard one more explanation for the meaning of Indra. It was probably derived from root word 'Ind-' which means to 'increase' or to 'magnify'. Indra is named so to signify his strength and vivifying nature.
So , it is just within the realm of possibility, but very unlikely: *H3eid- as root with a nasal infix and a tonic shift. Is it permitted by the development of Indo-aryan? Just about, but not common changes. Etymology should be regular basically for it to work.

There are a lot of folk etymologies (I think some 40?) that the poets made a lot of use of when composing their poems. This is a nice one.
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,487
New Delhi, India
#85
"Rroots in ancient Indo-European, Indo-Aryan deities. For example, as a reflex of proto-Indo-European *h₂nḗr-, Greek anēr, Sabine nerō, Avestan nar-, Umbrian nerus, Old Irish nert, Ossetic nart, and others which all refer to "most manly" or "hero".

Colonial era scholarship proposed that Indra shares etymological roots with Zend Andra derived from Old High German Antra, or Jedru of Old Slavonic, but Max Muller critiqued these proposals as untenable. Later scholarship has linked Vedic Indra to the European Aynar (the Great One), Abaza, Ubykh and Innara of Hittite mythology. Both the phonology and the context of Indra in Indian religions is best explained from Indo-Aryan roots and a Circassian etymology (i.e. *inra)."
Indra - Wikipedia

The Circassians (Russian: Čerkesy), also known by their endonym Adyghe (Circassian: Adygekher, Russian: Adýgi), are a Northwest Caucasian ethnic group native to Circassia. Historical Circassia has been divided by Soviet and Russian administrations into the modern-day titular Circassian republics of Adygea, Kabardino-Balkaria, Karachay-Cherkessia and Krasnodar Krai, as well as southwestern parts of Stavropol Krai and Rostov Oblast.
Circassians - Wikipedia
 
Mar 2013
972
Breakdancing on the Moon.
#86
Indra can't be taken back to *h₂nḗr unfortunately, that is morphologically impossible due to the sound changes governing its outcome in Sanskrit. I've mentioned the possibility of a loan-word above, its the most likely even if least poetic, but such is life sadly.
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,524
USA
#87
So , it is just within the realm of possibility, but very unlikely: *H3eid- as root with a nasal infix and a tonic shift. Is it permitted by the development of Indo-aryan? Just about, but not common changes. Etymology should be regular basically for it to work.

There are a lot of folk etymologies (I think some 40?) that the poets made a lot of use of when composing their poems. This is a nice one.
Folk etymologies are more likely than that fictitious H3 H2 form.

Look at the following words in Rig Veda (the root words are from PANini sutras, which are listed in SAyaNA's commentary):

Indra: root - Idi - meaning wealth
Chandra: root - chadi - meaning happiness
Tandra: root - tadi - meaning obstacle
Mandra: root - Madi - meaning intoxicating

Do we see a pattern in how these kind of words are formed?
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,524
USA
#88
Sukta (Hymn) 3.33 is a late addition to RigVeda, when the Aryans were already settled in Sapta Sindhu. They were already indigenized. Bharatas were not in Sushoma/Suvastu/Gandhara region but close to Yamuna-Ganges region. IMHO, it refers to raids between Aryan kingdoms. It does not mention any war with indigenous people. The poet wants the floods as they enrich the fields, but prays for the floods to be mild when they come in Vipasa and Shutudri. Even today a Punjabi or Haryana farmer in that region would pray for just that and not for a deluge. I would date the hymn around 1,500-1,200 BCE, though it does refer to the old Aryan legends (Vritra killed by Indra).

"Bow lowly down; be easy to be traversed stay, Rivers, with your floods below our axles."
"So let your wave bear up the pins, and ye, O Waters, spare the thongs;"



Today a bus or car driver would say "let the flood not wet my vehicle above the wheels and spare the exhaust pipe". :D
Having literally no clue of the language, you keep qualifying hymns as late additions and such. Wonderful!
 
Mar 2013
972
Breakdancing on the Moon.
#90
Folk etymologies are more likely than that fictitious H3 H2 form.

Look at the following words in Rig Veda (the root words are from PANini sutras, which are listed in SAyaNA's commentary):

Indra: root - Idi - meaning wealth
Chandra: root - chadi - meaning happiness
Tandra: root - tadi - meaning obstacle
Mandra: root - Madi - meaning intoxicating

Do we see a pattern in how these kind of words are formed?
Yes, the pattern is your complete ignorance not only of linguistics, but of the underlying principles - such as falsifiability and predictability. Essentially, you're a villager with an internet connection. You're welcome.
 
Status
Closed

Similar History Discussions