Risk of Russia being banned completely from Rio Olympics

Aug 2014
1,009
Canada
https://www.rt.com/sport/352436-russian-athletes-court-arbitration-sport/
The Russian Track and Field Team has just been banned completely from the Rio Olympics after the court of arbitration dismissed the plea of the Russian Olympic Association and 68 Russian Olympic athletes.

Now, word is that Russia might be facing a complete shut-out from the Rio Olympics: https://www.thestar.com/sports/amateur/2016/07/21/russia-loses-appeal-against-track-and-field-ban.html

Since not all or even a majority of the athletes have been proved to be doping cheats, this seems excessive - the unproven allegation is that the State is intimately involved in organizing and running the doping scheme. Is this purely doping related ? Or is there a larger agenda at work to make Russia an international pariah state ?

Russian Olympic ban upheld, Moscow denounces crime against sport | Reuters

Russia's Doping Shame
 
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constantine

Ad Honorem
Oct 2012
8,545
It only serves to undermine the significance of the event and the accomplishment of winning it, if one of the major players like the US, Russia, or China is excluded, it's not really a world championship like the Olympics is intended to be and any medals won will always be under the suspicion that they're mere consolation prizes since the real competition didn't show up. This was pretty much the case in 1980 and 1984, but at least then there were good geopolitical reasons for screwing up the Olympics, this time it's just that the Russians didn't do a good enough job of covering up their doping programme.

Maybe the US can just send them some advisors to help teach them how to better hide their doping programme, like we do, and we can call it good?
 
Aug 2014
1,009
Canada
It only serves to undermine the significance of the event and the accomplishment of winning it, if one of the major players like the US, Russia, or China is excluded, it's not really a world championship like the Olympics is intended to be and any medals won will always be under the suspicion that they're mere consolation prizes since the real competition didn't show up. This was pretty much the case in 1980 and 1984, but at least then there were good geopolitical reasons for screwing up the Olympics, this time it's just that the Russians didn't do a good enough job of covering up their doping programme.

Maybe the US can just send them some advisors to help teach them how to better hide their doping programme, like we do, and we can call it good?
Constantine: Sincerely - in thread after thread, I have come to respect and admire your endearing frankness and candor. After all, as Orwell said: In a Time of Universal Deceit — Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.
 

Vaeltaja

Ad Honorem
Sep 2012
3,700
It is more of the question that which of the Russian athletes can be assumed to be clean. Keep in mind that Russian anti-doping authority instead of trying to find out doping cases acted to hide them. Athletes who have practiced under valid anti-doping system are in fact eligible to take part to the Olympics (there aren't many of those) though possibly only under the Olympic flag.

And sure there has doping cases in elsewhere as well but so far they haven't been state supported. That is a huge difference here. You have been able to trace the chain to coaches and managers at best but not beyond that.
Since not all or even a majority of the athletes have been proved to be doping cheats, this seems excessive - the unproven allegation is that the State is intimately involved in organizing and running the doping scheme.
I'm not sure how to call that unproved after the two reports...
Is this purely doping related ?
Yes, but it is not aimed at Russia. It is a shame that Russian athletes are the ones suffering from it. I fully expect that Russia is not the last country to come under such scrutiny - this is likely just the beginning.
Or is there a larger agenda at work to make Russia an international pariah state ?
Russia has been so busy doing that on its own that it really doesn't need any help in it.

IMO Russia's problem is that they have mixed nationalism into the sports far too tightly and therefore made it requirement for their system to win instead of competing.
 

Space Shark

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
3,474
Redneck Country, AKA Texas
It only serves to undermine the significance of the event and the accomplishment of winning it, if one of the major players like the US, Russia, or China is excluded, it's not really a world championship like the Olympics is intended to be and any medals won will always be under the suspicion that they're mere consolation prizes since the real competition didn't show up. This was pretty much the case in 1980 and 1984, but at least then there were good geopolitical reasons for screwing up the Olympics, this time it's just that the Russians didn't do a good enough job of covering up their doping programme.

Maybe the US can just send them some advisors to help teach them how to better hide their doping programme, like we do, and we can call it good?
If everyone's cheating, doesn't that mean the playing field is still even?
 

constantine

Ad Honorem
Oct 2012
8,545
It is more of the question that which of the Russian athletes can be assumed to be clean. Keep in mind that Russian anti-doping authority instead of trying to find out doping cases acted to hide them. Athletes who have practiced under valid anti-doping system are in fact eligible to take part to the Olympics (there aren't many of those) though possibly only under the Olympic flag.

And sure there has doping cases in elsewhere as well but so far they haven't been state supported. That is a huge difference here. You have been able to trace the chain to coaches and managers at best but not beyond that.

I'm not sure how to call that unproved after the two reports...

Yes, but it is not aimed at Russia. It is a shame that Russian athletes are the ones suffering from it. I fully expect that Russia is not the last country to come under such scrutiny - this is likely just the beginning.

Russia has been so busy doing that on its own that it really doesn't need any help in it.

IMO Russia's problem is that they have mixed nationalism into the sports far too tightly and therefore made it requirement for their system to win instead of competing.
And therein lies the problem, institutions are incompetent, so you need to do like we do in America, put a bureaucratic institution in charge of something you want to be inefficient (like anti-doping oversight), so that the body you are trying to undermine is incompetent, and decentralize the doping programme itself so it's run competently and efficiently.

Russia did the opposite, the classic Russian mistake of placing too much faith in bureaucracy. Had they put these same idiots they used to perpetrate doping in charge of anti-doping oversight, they would have likely proven just as incompetent and screwed up just as bad, just for the other side, and nobody would have been caught. Russia makes the same mistakes in foreign policy, trying to use state agencies to project power and spread influence, we learned long ago that state actors are both suspect and of limited competence, much better to use NGO's for this purpose, while the state actors pretend to be opposing the actions non-state actors...it is the cornerstone of plausible deniability, a concept the Russians seem to have a harder time with.

Doping, itself, is, of course, a non issue. Nobody can compete at that level without doping, therefore everybody does it. We've merely added a bit of complexity to the system with anti-doping rules, which give large and well organized nations with considerable experience in manipulating and deceiving international organizations an advantage; and in this event, the US is guaranteed to win gold. It's good for politics, not so good for sport.
 

Vaeltaja

Ad Honorem
Sep 2012
3,700
And therein lies the problem, institutions are incompetent, so you need to do like we do in America, put a bureaucratic institution in charge of something you want to be inefficient (like anti-doping oversight), so that the body you are trying to undermine is incompetent, and decentralize the doping programme itself so it's run competently and efficiently.
So far no one has been able to show that there would be a doping program in the USA. Which undermines your whole argument since given that the transparency and the amount of journalistic freedom that exists (neither of which are plentiful in Russia) make it far more difficult for such a remain hidden. So can you prove the existence of that 'programme' (after all, you claimed there would be one so it the onus is on you to prove it as well)?
Doping, itself, is, of course, a non issue. Nobody can compete at that level without doping, therefore everybody does it.
And you know this how exactly?
We've merely added a bit of complexity to the system with anti-doping rules, which give large and well organized nations with considerable experience in manipulating and deceiving international organizations an advantage; and in this event, the US is guaranteed to win gold. It's good for politics, not so good for sport.
And do you actually have anything apart from hot air to prove anything that you have written?
 
Mar 2012
1,582
City of Angels
Maybe the US can just send them some advisors to help teach them how to better hide their doping programme, like we do, and we can call it good?
They hid it plenty well, unfortunately they were given up by one of their own doctors in the program. If other nations are also doing this on the same institutional level as the Russians were, it's only a matter of time before they're found out as well.

But I wouldn't hold my breath on that. The Russians did absolutely abysmal and were embarrassed at the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver, and it became obvious that there was foul play involved as their subsequent performances including winning it all in Sochi were too good to be true.
 
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constantine

Ad Honorem
Oct 2012
8,545
So far no one has been able to show that there would be a doping program in the USA. Which undermines your whole argument since given that the transparency and the amount of journalistic freedom that exists (neither of which are plentiful in Russia) make it far more difficult for such a remain hidden. So can you prove the existence of that 'programme' (after all, you claimed there would be one so it the onus is on you to prove it as well)?

And you know this how exactly?

And do you actually have anything apart from hot air to prove anything that you have written?
So are you seriously arguing that American athletes aren't making ready use of HGH, test base, and EPO, as well as a few other short ester steroids like masteron (drostanolone propionate), mesterolone, or stanalone for training? These can be used every bit as effectively as traditional bodybuilding cycles for strength gain (though tren is nice for that purpose, but even with short esters difficult to hide) and more effectively for endurance athletes and can be incredibly difficult to detect, if used intelligently. And that doesn't even include some highly effective PED's that were originally designed for ADHD like, Adderall, which are allowed by the olympic committee and for sports that involve hand-eye coordination (like baseball) is probably more effective than all other PED's combined.

There's a large black market industry in the United States for this and it is exploited at every level of sport, from high school to the pros. An entire world of underground medicine has evolved to help people use them effectively (though, I must admit, most people don't bother to do the research and use PED's poorly, often neglecting important parts of a cycle, like post-cycle therapy...which does more damage than the PED's themselves ever could). Head over to a forum like cutting edge muscle and see for yourself if you don't believe me. Every athlete who was worth a damn in high school was using PED's, including over half the football team and everybody I know who went on to higher levels of sport uses them at the very least during the off season. They're really more useful for training than the event itself, anyway, the primary advantage to steroids is they help your muscles heal faster, thus letter you practice longer and more often, which is where most the muscle gain comes from. Obvious exceptions are EPO and ADHD drugs...but you can generally use ADHD drugs with a script and can get away with using EPO during an event, just so long as you test regularly, know your body, and keep your Hematocrit count in check, it's an easy test that can be done with a cheap centrifuge.

But, no, obviously there's no proof other than the obvious increases in performance over the years (and corresponding increases in hat and shoe sizes...though I'm sure that's not related to HGH use, lol) and if I had it I wouldn't volunteer it, for obvious reasons, that's the point of plausible deniability; if there were proof that would mean the system failed, like it did in Russia. I mean, occasionally somebody gets busted, but there's always plausible deniability by the organizations themselves. But it's more than obvious to anybody who has spent any time in this world and who has any experience with PED's; the reality is that one can barely compete in high school without PED's, above that, you have to be a freak of nature to compete clean (like cyclists with natural Hematocrit levels of 55%-60%, though I suspect most who have an exemption from the 50% limit got it through careful, but deliberate manipulation of their Hematocrit levels through EPO/blood doping over several years).

But if you want to believe the propaganda, go for it, ignorance is bliss.
 

constantine

Ad Honorem
Oct 2012
8,545
If everyone's cheating, doesn't that mean the playing field is still even?
In some ways it makes it more even, one no longer necessarily has an advantage because, say, they naturally have higher testosterone levels, because those with naturally lower testosterone levels can simply supplement it and one with naturally high hematocrit can have his advantage offset by someone using EPO/blood doping to get to the same levels.

But, it's still not even, it just means different, less understood, genes become more important; the reality is that everybody's body doesn't respond the same to PED's. I could live the exact same lifestyle, eat the exact same diet, use the exact same exercise routine, and use the exact same gear (PED's) as Ronnie Coleman, but I'd never even come close to his physique. His body simply responds better to PED's than the vast majority of humanity would. At the end of the day, all sport is nothing more than a competition of genes, yes training, diet, PED's all play a role, but the bottom line is genetics, PED's may change which genes are important and even slightly reduce the influence of genetics, but genetics are still the overriding factor in athletic ability and there's absolutely nothing anybody can do about it for the time being. The Holy Grail of PED's isn't a hormone or peptide, it's genetic manipulation, that and that alone will level the playing field in sport.

That's why I've always been very uncomfortable with the whole anti-doping movement, it strikes me as a movement to preserve an outdated notion of genetic purity, to ensure that certain genes continue to be rewarded above others. Opening up sport to PED's would mean mitigating the natural genetic advantage of some and through knowledge of biology, biochemistry, and endocrinology, giving an opportunity to some who would otherwise be denied it by virtue of their genes. It would also go a long ways towards legitimizing the pursuit of human perfection through science and possibly make whole new avenues of scientific research profitable. Acceptance of PED's would be good for sport and good for humanity as a whole.