caldrail

Ad Honorem
Feb 2012
5,192
#13
Swindon? You mean Satan has founded his Dark Imperium here in rainy old Swindon? That explains our local newsletter which is full of 'what a lovely place this is to live in' . It isn't. It's just a grubby little town with an important past and ambitions to become a city.

Jesus was not responsible for the Book of Revelations nor in fact can he be properly linked to the Bible at all other than he stars as the central character of the New Testament. I pass street preachers in my home town regularly who spout all sorts of nonsense about Jesus and his 'messages'. The truth is that no-one knows what Jesus said - it was not recorded. The gospels are later works and the ones we know today are those that survived the censorship of the late Roman Empire. As many as forty different gospels have not survived, and none were likely written by the person they're attributed to.

Satan has developed over the centuries and in fact, descends from the role of women in religion. Lucifer, the alternative name for Satan, is in fact a woman's name, and refers to the planet Venus at Dawn, the aspect of the goddess Diane as the Bringer of Light. In the newly Christianised world of the late Roman and the consequent zealousy of the middle ages the idea of prominent women in religion was not encouraged and to some extent demonised - we have only recently overcome that obstacle.

Nonetheless the idea of the satanic Dark Imperium is as much rubbish as the Second Coming and the End-Time prophecies. You cannot have a projected unified paradise without fear of a terrible reverse or an alternative regime. It is just human nature and passion for story telling, not to mention social control, getting the better of us.
 
Likes: Eryl Enki
Apr 2017
681
Lemuria
#14
Swindon? You mean Satan has founded his Dark Imperium here in rainy old Swindon? That explains our local newsletter which is full of 'what a lovely place this is to live in' . It isn't. It's just a grubby little town with an important past and ambitions to become a city.
Hilarious.
 

Theodoric

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
2,664
#15
Revelation seems to be a later work, or at least, a later work based on earlier works.

It’s not even a vision someone had. Much of its imagery is taken from earlier works that were canonized IN the old testament itself. The author adapts imagery to later events. But I think the most traceable section is the bloody winepress, which is sourced to the Talmud in the 2nd century referencing the Bar Kokhba revolt.

The revolt was catalyzed with the great constructions of the Romans in the region across Syria, Palestine, and Lebanon. Hadrian picked the temple mound as the place his construction place, and they built a temple to Jupiter (interesting they enjoyed making giant temples to Jupiter on their Eastern-most regions). The revolt was led by the Messiah Simon Bar Kokhba, his forces destroyed the Romans in the region and the Messianic Kingdom lasted for years during the reign of Hadrian. Eventually the Romans came in and killed them all.

Revelation itself is written cryptically like other apocalyptic work, full of metaphor. While we can’t know exactly what the writer was referring to, many of the events have been linked to the Roman assaults on Jewish people mainly in the 1st but also in the early half of the 2nd; we also don’t find any fragments of it which date to before the end of the 2nd century.

Anyway, Revelation 14:20

“And the wine press was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the wine press, even to the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”
Then from the Talmud on the fall of Betar in 135 ad:
“Eighty thousand Romans entered Betar and slaughtered the men, women and children until blood flowed from the doorways and sewers. Horses sank up until their nostrils, and the rivers of blood lifted up rocks weighing forty se’ah [approximately 700 lb.], and flowed into the sea, where its stain was noticeable for a distance of four mil [approximately 2.5 miles].

“Hadrian had a large vineyard, eighteen mil [approximately 11.5 miles] by eighteen mil—the distance between Tiberias and Tzippori—and he surrounded it with a wall made from the bodies of those slain in Betar. He also ordered that they not be brought to burial.”


From the looks of it, Revelation is largely based on events in the Roman Empire from the mid 1st century, including the period of the second temple destruction to the Bar Kokhba revolt in the 130s.

Whoever wrote it seemed angry about the military defeats of the Jewish people and used the opportunity to install an apocalyptic Jesus. No one should buy for a minute that it’s a recorded vision, or a text written at any point around Jesus’s supposed time, knowing his thought or intent. Creative, yes, I’ll grant it, but ita purposes seem more for for distribution to followers during the period of the fallout of the Bar Kokhba revolt rather than a 1st century vision.
 
Nov 2016
592
Germany
#16
Temples, in which Zeus, Dionysus, Demeter, Asklepius and Athena were worshipped, stood in many Asia Minor cities, whereby Pergamon represented a special center of Zeus cult and the Pergamon altar consecrated to Zeus is a hot candidate for the reference object of the "throne of Satan".

It can be assumed that the author of Rev was familiar with the essential aspects of the Isis cult, which is very widespread in Asia Minor. In Pergamon, the most important city besides Ephesus in the series of the addressed villages, stood a sanctuary donated by Hadrian (today called "Red Hall"), which served as temple for Egyptian gods (most probably Isis and Hadrian's favourite Serapis, equated with Helios of Rhodes) and was also a place of the imperial cult. Isis, Serapis and Anubis had already been worshipped in Pergamon since the 2nd century BCE, so three hundred years later at the time of the Revelation of John they could look back on a long tradition of worship. It is impossible that the author of Rev, as a connoisseur of the Pergamon scene, was not familiar with this cult.

Revelation seems to be a later work, or at least, a later work based on earlier works.

It’s not even a vision someone had. Much of its imagery is taken from earlier works that were canonized IN the old testament itself
True. See also my thread in the Religious History section:

The Visions in John´s Revelation

(...)

A model for the 24 ´elders´ grouped around the throne of God (´elders´ = presbyters) does not exist in Jewish literature, but it is likely that this circle of persons or their number was inspired by the cultural environment of the author. Options include the traditional 24 Old Testament authors, the 24 hours of the day and the 24 lictors under Domitian (provided that Revelation was created during his time). Furthermore, the 12 apostles plus the 12 patriarchs come into question as well as the 24 priestly orders in 1 Chron 24,7-18 with their high significance for the temple service. As far as the person of the "elderly" is concerned, her white robe indicates her holy status. In Hebrews 11:2, the saints of the Old Testament are called "elderly" (presbyters). In combination with this, there is enough evidence of templates for the 24 "elders" surrounding the throne of God, which make the assumption of an original vision redundant.

In this way, one could go through the entire Revelation and prove scene by scene cross-references to literary tradition and social reality. Even if 5 or 10 percent of the content of Revelation could not be deduced from traditional history, it would be possible that in these cases the author has created his own fantasies and interwoven them with the rest of the material.

(...)
 
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