Scotch-Irish & Black Irish

Dec 2018
1
Kentucky
After signing up I just found the thread about black haired Irish, closed. May I present to you that many Appalachians are descended from Scotch and Irish Immigrants and even my Mother's Ancestors from Kentucky, with her Mother being a Taylor going back to Wales through a full blood brother of President Zachary Taylor, in her case via Arkansas to SW KY on and near the Ohio River where her Father's farm was flooded in the 1920's, but the Taylor far was up higher. Where did George Clooney come from? What is his coloring? I could tritely rest my case there, but seeing as these threads need hard evidence, I'll go a little further. Other threads I read talked about Irish street names in Spain. Spanish trading long before the bug Spanish Armada shipwreck, Jews being in Ireland a long time before that, and my Mother's Father's and his Father's name was Eli. There were more Elis. We have a female version, in my opinion, of Eli called Ella. My Mother always said she was Scotch-Irish but got on the genealogy kick since we are in the DAR via her Dad's line going back to Delaware, which could account for my maternal Great Grandmother being Native American as The Delaware Indians migrated to AR. ANYWAY, I SENT IN MOM'S CHEEK SWABS to a company that doesn't fool with the SE. Mom has Olive skin and tans to black, big brown eyes and black wavy hair like her Dad AND Mom. When we got the results Mom had a long list of Countries and People in her DNA, and guess what #1 was for my Scotch-Irish Mom whose "look" we could NEVER figure out and why this was such a big deal? #1 was Spanish! There you have it. Science. She also has many European Countries, Scotland being way down on the list! She used to tell me stories of Indentured Servitude by the Orange Men. I'm not sure about her Irish content anymore, but Mom also (Remember Eli & Ella -as in our fameous cousin Bill Peet's book (should be Peete, but he changed it) Ella The Elephant.) has Ashkenazi Jewish DNA, Kenyan DNA and like I said, many European Countries, with Spain, after all her 80+ years thinking she was just and only English, Scotch-Irish & Native American. I couldn't find a Tartan for Thrasher, either. I am a Green eyed Ginger with yellow-orange skin which gets quite pale and as I age is showing more pink. We also have an hereditary gray streak in our hair. Mom 's came in young on the right, then the left, later though it migrated, ha ha (& she resembles Liz Taylor), my Grampy had it down the center like a slunk, and mine is on the left front. The other day, friends told me that originally, that Northern Ireland was Scottish. Does that prove the Catholic Spanish ingredient and shouldn't somebody conduct a Spanish DNA study of the British Isles to look for who has what DNA going HOW FAR BACK? Now THAT would make sense out of all of this Spanish mix-in conjecture, not to Mention, Jewish and Norse, German and French as well. Yes, Mom has quite a bit of German, too, like the Royal Family who usurped the Scottish Throne, but in my opinion did not and could not possibly remove it's DNA. Hmm. Maybe Spain is part of the reason England wanted Scotland so very much? President Taylor hails from Wales...!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Futurist

M9Powell

Ad Honorem
Oct 2014
4,448
appalacian Mtns
As too Northern Ireland being Scottish. That's one way of looking at it. You could just as easily say Scotland is Irish. The Dal Riadh or Scotti if you prefer were a tribe of Irish that lived where Scotland & Ireland almost touch. They were Gaels & lived on both sides of the Irish sea. Incidentally some of their legends claim to have come from Northern Spain before invading Ireland & Scotland. Also many lowland Saxons from the border country of Scotland & England were moved too Ulster as part of the English attempts to settle Anglo-Saxons in Northern Ireland in big plantations. All of these people & many regular Irish ended up in Appalachia, though most academics label them all as Scots-Irish which would really only be the Anglo-Saxons from the Irish plantations.
 

johnincornwall

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,676
Cornwall
And there's me not knowing anything beyond my Grandmother. Wonder if she was decended from Spanish/irish/Scottish, Norman/Saxon/Viking/Angle/Jute/Roman or maybe Hittite?
 

Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,171
US
I had a friend who was of Irish descent and he used to comment that his black hair was the result of some Spaniard being stranded on Ireland after the failure of the Spanish Armada. The fact is, people of Celtic descent will often have black hair. Many speculate that redheads come from the nordic lands and were brought to Ireland by the Vikings. Scots-Irish is a common term in the area where I live. These were people who settled in Ulster Ireland, from Scotland (mainly the lowlands) and northern England during the Plantation Perod (17th century). After a 100 years or so in Ulster, many came to the U.S. and settled primarily in the Appalachians.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Futurist

M9Powell

Ad Honorem
Oct 2014
4,448
appalacian Mtns
IScots-Irish is a common term in the area where I live. These were people who settled in Ulster Ireland, from Scotland (mainly the lowlands) and northern England during the Plantation Perod (17th century). After a 100 years or so in Ulster, many came to the U.S. and settled primarily in the Appalachians.

Yes, but there were also many Gaelic Highlanders & Gaelic Irish who settled in Appalachia. A lot of people mistakenly apply this term too them. Too be clear, these people were Saxons just like the English. I'm also pretty sure red headed Celts & Saxons were fairly common long before the Viking age. Genetically i don't think you can distinguish a Celt from Germanics. It's not Genetics but culture & a different language that separates them.

PS I think any group with blondes also has redheads, redheads are just rusty blondes.
 

Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,171
US
Yes, but there were also many Gaelic Highlanders & Gaelic Irish who settled in Appalachia. A lot of people mistakenly apply this term too them. Too be clear, these people were Saxons just like the English. I'm also pretty sure red headed Celts & Saxons were fairly common long before the Viking age. Genetically i don't think you can distinguish a Celt from Germanics. It's not Genetics but culture & a different language that separates them.

PS I think any group with blondes also has redheads, redheads are just rusty blondes.
I am thinking of the time frame of say, 1750 to 1825, the time of migration across the Appalachians to places like western Pa and western VA/KY. Were there many Gaelic Irish during this period?
 

Sindane

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
4,686
Europe
These terms are quirky Americanisms and have no real historical meaning.

Irish people, of any background, did not refer to themselves 'Scoth-irish' and 'Black Irish' stories are myth making

'Highlanders' were a minor demographic of the total Scots people and Scotland is a small country by population (about the same population as the English county of Yorkshire)

Old parish records, 18th and 19yh century, for the Appalachia region show mostly English surnames

English people are not 'Saxons' and do not refer to themselves as such.

'Red and black hair' are found at roughly the same rates cross the populations of Britain and Ireland. It doesn't mean anything

'Celt' and 'Saxon' are not ethnicities, they are time periods

Irish and English/British people are very similar, they share a similar culture and ethnicity.

Peak migration to USA was after industrialisation in Britain, when a similar number of industrial/agricultural labourers from both Ireland and England arrived there

Irish and British have been inter marrying, also swapping and changing religious denominations, for centuries
 
Last edited:

Sindane

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
4,686
Europe
After signing up I just found the thread about black haired Irish, closed. May I present to you that many Appalachians are descended from Scotch and Irish Immigrants and even my Mother's Ancestors from Kentucky, with her Mother being a Taylor going back to Wales through a full blood brother of President Zachary Taylor, in her case via Arkansas to SW KY on and near the Ohio River where her Father's farm was flooded in the 1920's, but the Taylor far was up higher.
Zachary Taylor's ancestry was English and Taylor is a very common English surname. It isn't common in north Wales, though many English coal miners did move to south Wales during industrialisation

Where did George Clooney come from? What is his coloring? I could tritely rest my case there, ...
George Clooney is American. Clooney is of Irish, German and English ancestry. His 'colouring' is pretty nondescript and irrelevant

...but seeing as these threads need hard evidence, I'll go a little further. Other threads I read talked about Irish street names in Spain. Spanish trading long before the bug Spanish Armada shipwreck, Jews being in Ireland a long time before that, and my Mother's Father's and his Father's name was Eli. There were more Elis. We have a female version, in my opinion, of Eli called Ella.
If you are suggesting that the name 'Eli' means anything , it is more likely to mean that the family were , what is referred to in the UK/Ireland as, Nonconformist.
Nonconformists often gave their children old testament names and it became fashionable. I have many of these types of given names in my family tree, because some of my ancestors came from English industrial areas where Nonconformism (Methodist, Wesleyan etcetera) was popular


My Mother always said she was Scotch-Irish but got on the genealogy kick since we are in the DAR via her Dad's line going back to Delaware, which could account for my maternal Great Grandmother being Native American as The Delaware Indians migrated to AR. ANYWAY, I SENT IN MOM'S CHEEK SWABS to a company that doesn't fool with the SE. Mom has Olive skin and tans to black, big brown eyes and black wavy hair like her Dad AND Mom. When we got the results Mom had a long list of Countries and People in her DNA, and guess what #1 was for my Scotch-Irish Mom whose "look" we could NEVER figure out and why this was such a big deal? #1 was Spanish! There you have it. Science. She also has many European Countries, Scotland being way down on the list! She used to tell me stories of Indentured Servitude by the Orange Men.
Autosomal test , also known as 'ethnicity' tests, are notoriously unreliable. The small print even tells you this . Any result below about 20% should be disregarded as just 'noise'

I'm not sure about her Irish content anymore, but Mom also (Remember Eli & Ella -as in our fameous cousin Bill Peet's book (should be Peete, but he changed it) Ella The Elephant.) has Ashkenazi Jewish DNA, Kenyan DNA and like I said, many European Countries, with Spain, after all her 80+ years thinking she was just and only English, Scotch-Irish & Native American. I couldn't find a Tartan for Thrasher, either. I am a Green eyed Ginger with yellow-orange skin which gets quite pale and as I age is showing more pink. We also have an hereditary gray streak in our hair. Mom 's came in young on the right, then the left, later though it migrated, ha ha (& she resembles Liz Taylor), my Grampy had it down the center like a slunk, and mine is on the left front. The other day, friends told me that originally, that Northern Ireland was Scottish. Does that prove the Catholic Spanish ingredient and shouldn't somebody conduct a Spanish DNA study of the British Isles to look for who has what DNA going HOW FAR BACK? Now THAT would make sense out of all of this Spanish mix-in conjecture, not to Mention, Jewish and Norse, German and French as well.
There is no meaningful 'Spanish people' connection with Ireland. Irish heritage people, like British heritage people, are mostly descended from the iron age , with some influence from post iron age migrations from Europe.
Irish people and British (English, Scots, Welsh) people intermarried. There was no huge physical walls separating these people and nothing, laws and so on, to bar them from mixing with each other. I cannot emphasise this point enough.
'Northern Ireland' was not 'Scottish'. Ireland was part of Britain until the early 20th century
Is 'Thrasher' a surname? According to surname profile sites , it is an English/Welsh surname


Yes, Mom has quite a bit of German, too, like the Royal Family who usurped the Scottish Throne, but in my opinion did not and could not possibly remove it's DNA. Hmm. Maybe Spain is part of the reason England wanted Scotland so very much? President Taylor hails from Wales...!
When did a 'German' royal family 'usurp' the 'Scottish' throne?
President Taylor did not 'hail from Wales'
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Haakbus