Scotch-Irish & Black Irish

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,401
Portugal
#61
Sorry I thought u were referring too Germanics in Britain. The only way a few Germanics could take over would be if the opposition had very few soldiers or their quality of soldiers & arms were lacking. I don't think that's the case in post Roman Britain. But the Celts downfall has always been their penchant for constant warfare amongst themselves. For instance at the same time the British Celts are fighting the Saxons too the east the Garlic Celts are attacking them from the West & the Picts (who were most likely Celtic, but we may never know for sure) are attacking from the North. They managed too hold off the Gaels, but lost most of the island too the Saxons. Anyone who could do that wouldn't have a hard time with a few Saxons.
Yes, re-reading my post it could be interpreted that I was talking solelly about Britain. But in the case of Britain I don’t know. I admit that is quite possible that their numbers in comparison to the previous non-Germanic population could be higher, but I confess that I never read much about the subject… well I read some of Bernard Cornwell’s novels :)
 

Scaeva

Ad Honorem
Oct 2012
5,522
#64
When the Ullish people arrived in America they were called Irish. They resented this and so Scotch-Irish was used to describe them.
Scotch-Irish is actually a British term that was imported to the colonies rather than an Americanism. There is a letter from Elizabeth I of England for instance that refers to an Irish aristocrat as "Scotch-Irish."
 
Sep 2013
1,447
Ulster
#65
Scotch-Irish is actually a British term that was imported to the colonies rather than an Americanism. There is a letter from Elizabeth I of England for instance that refers to an Irish aristocrat as "Scotch-Irish."
Yes true but were the English still not in control at that time. It was when getting off the boat that those dealing with their arrival called them Irish and they objected to this. Elizabeth may have called them Scotch-Irish but I don't think it had been taken up in America until later.
 

Scaeva

Ad Honorem
Oct 2012
5,522
#66
Yes true but were the English still not in control at that time. It was when getting off the boat that those dealing with their arrival called them Irish and they objected to this. Elizabeth may have called them Scotch-Irish but I don't think it had been taken up in America until later.
Oh, it definitely found more popularity in the colonies. The same is also true for Scotch, which is what people from Scotland were originally called on both sides of the pond. It fell out of use in the 19th Century in the U.K. but stayed in use a bit longer in the U.S.

I just find it interesting that some words or phrases that are now considered Americanisms are actually forgotten or archaic British terms or phrases.
 
Likes: Fred Crawford

Sindane

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
4,686
Europe
#67
Scotch-Irish is actually a British term that was imported to the colonies rather than an Americanism. There is a letter from Elizabeth I of England for instance that refers to an Irish aristocrat as "Scotch-Irish."

'Scotch-irish' is a recent term.
Look at the 19th century and early 20th century census entries given by Irish immigrants in Britain, USA, Australia etc for place of birth, nationality or parents nationality. None of them use the term 'Scotch/Scots -Irish'. Regardless of where in Ireland they are from. They use either 'Ireland' or in some cases the name of an Irish county (if you're lucky).
It's an American term that first became popularised by American family tree researchers in about the 1980s
 
May 2017
81
United States of America
#68
No, the term was used in the colonies of North America to refer to Ulster Scots that immigrated the the back country of Pennsylvania and the Southern Colonies especially in Appalachia. THE HISTORICAL USE OF THE TERM "SCOTCH-IRISH" - New Acquisition Militia The Ulster Scots were just called Irish by the colonists but they used the term Scots Irish to differentiate themselves from the Catholic Gaelic Irish.
 
Likes: Fred Crawford

Sindane

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
4,686
Europe
#69
No, the term was used in the colonies of North America to refer to Ulster Scots that immigrated the the back country of Pennsylvania and the Southern Colonies especially in Appalachia. THE HISTORICAL USE OF THE TERM "SCOTCH-IRISH" - New Acquisition Militia The Ulster Scots were just called Irish by the colonists but they used the term Scots Irish to differentiate themselves from the Catholic Gaelic Irish.
None of this link says the term was in widespread use by ordinary people.
This is why you will not see it used on the census.
 

Scaeva

Ad Honorem
Oct 2012
5,522
#70
'Scotch-irish' is a recent term.
Look at the 19th century and early 20th century census entries given by Irish immigrants in Britain, USA, Australia etc for place of birth, nationality or parents nationality. None of them use the term 'Scotch/Scots -Irish'. Regardless of where in Ireland they are from. They use either 'Ireland' or in some cases the name of an Irish county (if you're lucky).
It's an American term that first became popularised by American family tree researchers in about the 1980s
It is not recent. It used by Elizabeth I, who died in 1603.

Scotch-Irish may have been used more commonly in the Americas than the United Kingdom, but it did not originate in the U.S. and is not modern. The relevant bits of Elizabeth's letter:

"We are given to understand that a nobleman named Sorley Boy, and others who be of the Scotch-Irish race, and some of the wild Irish, at this time are content to acknowledge our true and mere right to the countie of Ulster and the crowne of Ireland...and we are content that any mere Irish or Scotch-Irish, or any other strangers who claim inheritance, or shall hold any lands, or be resident in any place which is within our grant..."

link
 
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