Should Britain and France have tried harder to create an alliance with the USSR in 1939?

Should Britain and France have tried harder to create an alliance with the USSR in 1939?

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Nov 2015
1,572
Kyiv
#91
And then you take into account German plans like the Hunger Plan and Lebensraum and understand that the Germans were no better than the Soviets.
- I try to pay more attention to real deeds, not plans. Moreover, both the German and Soviet plans were often very distant from reality. As for the Ukrainians, they know much better than the Russians what the German occupation was. And I knowingly quoted the words of our elderly peasants that I heard with my ears. Under the Germans, it was easier (than under the Moscow authorities). Пiд нiмцями нам було значно легше.

Even the commissar of the Soviet partisan detachment Rudnev, during a raid from the Chernigov forests in the Carpathian region in 1943, wrote in his diary about the abundance of food at the Ukrainian villagers in the German-occupied territory, that the wheat stood like a wall in the fields - and nowhere says that the Germans pressed Ukrainian villagers. Moreover he wrote that almost all villages they passed on their way were under control of Ukrainian nationalis partisans, not under German control. This control was in the cities of these large region in 1943.

Their life under the German occupation was not a gift - but there was nothing to compare with the kolkhoz realities of the 1930s under the Moscow authorities. The Germans did not press Ukrainian villagers in such a way as Moscow cannibal power at the time. In cities, the German regime was much worse - and in the Ukrainian village - much softer. The Germans simply could not imagine that they could rob the villagers as much as the Moscow regime robbed them in his kolkhozes.

Practically, the Moscow authorities treated the Ukrainian peasants worse than slaves. A slave owner in classic slavery provides slaves with food, clothing and shelter. Kolkhoz peasants had to provide themselves with all of this, and they worked for the Moscow occupation regime in the 1930s practically free of charge, very often not receiving anything at all for a used wand-day. Sometimes it was half a kilogram or a kilogram of grain.
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
2,279
Republika Srpska
#92
Yes, I am aware that the Germans were willing to concede some things to the Ukrainians in order to use them against the USSR, but their eventual goal was still to create a greater Germany. Keep in mind that Himmler considered Kiev an ancient German city. The Germans were perfectly willing to let the Ukrainians starve, as Fritz Sauckel actually confirmed by saying that the German high command expected 10-20 million dead from starvation. And there was just as much confiscation from the peasants and unrealistic expectations like in Soviet times. In July 1942 Koch ordered the German army to confiscate all food from the peasants. In Kiev district alone around 39,000 tons were confiscated in June 1942 and 27,000 tons the following month. Koch also promised that in the future Germans would own all Ukrainian farms (during the war, Germans more or less took control over most of the sovkhoz).
 
Aug 2014
151
New York, USA
#93
Were the Russians going to launch an invasion of Germany in July-August 1941? I think yes.
You may *think* so, but we now *know* that this is factually incorrect. Russians finally declassified secret Soviet archives and relevant papers about secret Soviet military preparation plans in '39' -'41 in the early 2000s.
The plan that was adopted and signed off by Stalin underwent multiple revisions, but all of them revolved around a Soviet counter-attack and encirclement of the German forces.
Plan A was - If Germans attack in Central direction (due Moscow), Soviets should concentrate in the Center. There would be simultaneous Soviet thrusts from the North and South to encircle the German spearheads somewhere in Belarus.
Plan B was - if Germans attack in the South (oil fields) Soviets should concentrate in Ukraine. There would be a huge thrust from the south and a swing from the Center, to cut off the Germans somewhere in Poland.

Plan B was *partially* adopted by 1941 when the Germans attacked and caught the Soviets with their pants down. That is why when Germans attacked there were huge concentrations of Soviet forces in Ukraine. Stalin thought the Germans will attack in '42 because it was already late in June and he also was getting intelligence that the Germans are not stocking up on winter gear. We now have the actual copy of the documents with Stalin's signature on them. Note: Both plans were defensive, under the assumptions that the Germans will attack first.

There was another draft of the Plan, where the Soviets attack first in a preemptive strike, but this plan was dismissed by Stalin in favor of Plan B above, and it is just a draft with no signatures on it. (again we have all of the plans now since they were declassified).
3. The change of Soviet Foreign Minister from Litvinov (generally pro-West) to Molotov (generally pro-German) raised the possibility of a Soviet German pact
Molotov pro-German? lol
FYI, Molotov was very surprised when Stalin informed him that he is going to meet Ribbentrop in Moscow(!). He actually thought that Stalin was joking.
 
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Nov 2015
1,572
Kyiv
#94
You may *think* so, but we now *know* that this is factually incorrect. Russians finally declassified secret Soviet archives and relevant papers about secret Soviet military preparation plans in '39' -'41 in the early 2000s..
- Finally? In the early 2000s? Are you sure?

And what about that? -

Russian Lenta.ru

June 22, 2018
Declassified documents of the beginning of the Great Patriotic War

On the Day of Remembrance and Grief, the Russian Ministry of Defense published on its website digital copies of declassified documents of the start of World War II. Among them are the first directives, orders, prize lists and the German trophy card with the plan "Barbarossa".

... The department noted that the published documents will allow "to put a barrier to the falsifying history gaining momentum, documenting many of its false myths, becoming an important element in the system of military-patriotic education of youth."


Обнародованы рассекреченные документы начала Великой Отечественной войны: История: Наука и техника: Lenta.ru

Do you understand the purpose of such "declassification"? Military-patriotic education of the Russian youth, and not at all the restoration of the real history of the Second World War. With this filter, a group of old generals that are engaged in the Russian Ministry of military archives and write articles about the history of WWII, and filter archival documents before they are published.

At the same time, a large number of very important documents on WWII remain classified in the Russian archives:

Putin extended the secrecy of data on World War 2 in the Russian Archives until 2040.

https://imgprx.livejournal.net/95f3...LR9GaZMPlSavvE0eAwBrvX--pUfLbZxfQF38PNFrmo1_5

Actually many documents of the sort will be classified till 2044.
There is also a photo of the relevant resolution for 2014:




Whole document is in the above link.

And what has been declassified since 2000? This is an interesting question. You describe some details of the general plan of the defence of the 1941. I have never seen it. Can you let me have a link for the plan?

I keep track of all these publications. As far as I know the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation declassified several Plans to cover the state border of the USSR for Western military districts for every military district in the western side of the country. These plans are dated the first half of 1941. I have carefully studied these plans. They, in particular, are on this Ukrainian site. Links for the plans for two key districts - the Western (Belarusian - Dir) special military district and the Kiev special military district with nowadays comments.

План прикрытия госграницы ЗапОВО. stratplan-zapovo.shtml

What are about all these plans of covering of the state borders?

These are not the general plans for the defense of the USSR from the massive invasion of enemy forces. These are just plans to cover the border during the deployment of large masses of Red Army troops arriving to the western border after the start of the war. Where are the plans for the use of this large number of troops that moved in May and the first half of June 1941 to the west of the USSR? You really have the general Russian plan of defence dtd 1940 or first half of 1941? I would be happy to see it.

As far as I know, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation does not show such plansans to anyone. Maybe I have missed the due message in Russian media. Maybe.

On the whole - a lot of Russian - and probebly trophy German - documents of the WWII in Russian archives remain strictly classified. And will be classified till 2044 - if the whole situation in Russia would not change completely.

At the same time, the "plan to cover the border" for some reason provides ... the winning of air superiority of the Red Army air forces at the beginning of hostilities. The bombing of the German troops in order to prevent their accumulation for offensive. Very strange - as if it had been stipulated that the Germans would really strike first - then the troops would already be moving east from the places of the gathering. There are even more strange things. For example, near the western border, a number of aviation units were deployed to which the aircraft and their crews had not yet arrived. What for? So that at the first strike the Germans defeated their defenceless headquarters?

There are a whole lot of questions.

I also have materials of 1952 of a survey of the Soviet generals who participated in the battles of the summer of 1941. They were asked about the situation that had arisen before the start of the German offensive on June 22, 1941. The fact is that in Russia in 1952 a group was formed under the leadership of Colonel-General Alexander Pokrovsky in the Military history department of the General Staff, which began to develop a description of the war. And they asked these generals.

This document was declassified in June 2017. There are the same strange things.

According to the memoirs of a number of high military commanders of the Red Army units near the western border of the Soviet Union, some of them said that the border defense plan was brought to them in advance, they had the opportunity to develop their plans with the construction of battle formations and the definition of combat sectors. Others replied that they were not familiar with the plan, but received it in sealed packages in the first days of the war.

Can you imagine that? The general must prepare his troops for defense against the sudden attack of the enemy - but he is allowed to learn about the plan for such defense only after the German invasion!

So, the Commander of the Eighth Army of the Baltic Special Military District Sobennikov recalled: “Having received an appointment in March 1941, I, unfortunately, at that time neither at the General Staff nor upon arrival in the city of Riga at the headquarters of the Baltic Special Military District, was informed about the 1941 state border defense plan. It was only on May 28, 1941 (I remember this date perfectly) that I was summoned ... to the district headquarters was, literally hastily, acquainted with the "Defense Plan".

Генералы оценили ситуацию на границе СССР в июне 1941 года

That is, the army commander THREE MONTHS after taking office was not familiar with the border defense plan, according to which he had to prepare the troops and the lines of their defense. And only 20 days before the German invasion, he was in a hurry acquainted with this multi-paged plan.

Question: what was the Red Army preparing for before June 22, 1941? Where is the general plan of its defense against the massive Wehrmacht invasion in 1941? Now I see only the declassified plans of COVERING the USSR state border. The plans at the very beginning indicate their purpose:

Top secret
Of particular importance
Ex. № 2

NOTE
to the defense plan for the period of mobilization, concentration and deployment of KOVO troops for 1941


I. Defense tasks

Prevent the invasion of both land and air enemy into the district.

The stubborn defense of the fortifications along the state border firmly cover the mobilization, concentration and deployment of district troops.

Air defense and aviation operations ensure the normal operation of the railways and the concentration of district troops. All types of intelligence to determine in a timely manner the nature of the concentration and grouping of enemy troops.

Active actions of aviation to gain air supremacy and powerful strikes on the main groups of troops, railway junctions and bridges to disrupt and delay the concentration and deployment of enemy troops.

Prevent airborne assault and sabotage groups of the enemy from dropping and disembarking on the territory of the district. Under favorable conditions, all defenders and reserves of armies and districts should be prepared, at the direction of the High Command, to launch swift attacks to defeat enemy groups, transfer combat actions to its territory and seize advantageous lines.

The first air crossing and (ground - Dir) crossing of the state border by our units can only be done with the permission of the Main Command.

План прикрытия госграницы KВО. stratplan-kievovo.shtml
 
Nov 2015
1,572
Kyiv
#95
And how do you find such a point in terms of covering the borders of the Western Special Military District?

... fighter aviation in close cooperation with air defense covers the concentration of troops and objects of national importance to the line of Druskiniki, Shchuchin, Slonim, Bereza-Kartuska, art. Drogichin. There is no fighter aircraft east of this line.

You suggest that by June 22, 1941 Druskeniki were a few dozen kilometers from the border with the Germans, and Schuchin - ab. 100 km. I lived in that town with its military airfield in my childhood for 5 years.

What what kind of "defense of the country" was preparing the huge Red Army in 1941 with its 20 thousand combat aircraft - even if important objects further than 100 kilometers from the western border had no air cover?
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,608
Sydney
#96
Dir face up to the fact , you are are a Russophobe
OK that's your Shtick
own to it and live ever after ,
there is more to life that being a neocon scratching old wounds to make them bleed anew
 
Nov 2015
1,572
Kyiv
#97
Yes, I am aware that the Germans were willing to concede some things to the Ukrainians in order to use them against the USSR, but their eventual goal was still to create a greater Germany.
- Sertainly. The Germans tried to build a greater Germany. And the Russiands dreamed that their Soviet Union will spread for the whole globe. Or you have another idea for their motivation, when they put the globe in the emblem of the Soviet Union since 1923?




Keep in mind that Himmler considered Kiev an ancient German city
Maybe he really had such idea. If the Gothic historian Jordan places the capital of the Germanarich state on the Dnieper (Danapris or Danparstadt?), then it is quite likely to place this capital on high hills not far from the confluence of two large rivers, the Dnieper and the Desna, where later Kiev will grow.

Probably, the Russians learned about these thoughts of Himmler - and to spoil his idea they stuffed the entire center of Kiev with explosives in September 1941. A week after the Germans entered the city, the entire center blew out after the radio signal sent to the detonators from Voronezh. At the day of the entry of the Germans Kiev has any damages. And after a series of Russian explosions and a powerful fire that followed them the whole cente of the Ukrainian capita began reminding of the ruins of Stalingrad by the end of the winter of 1942-1943.

One of the first blows



September 1941. The Germans are trying to extinguish the fires on Khreshchatyk. Kiev Central Street




The most remarkable thing is that until the end of the 1980s the Moscow authorities diligently assured everyone that Kiev was destroyed by "damned fascists." Although our old people knew who blew up their city

The Germans were perfectly willing to let the Ukrainians starve, as Fritz Sauckel actually confirmed by saying that the German high command expected 10-20 million dead from starvation
The problem is that even Soviet historiography never declared that during the German occupation of Ukraine in our villages there was a famine. Moreover, none of our eyewitnesses mentions that the villages were starving under the Germans. Moreover, during the action of the Holodomor of 1932-1933 thousands of Ukrainian peasants who died of hunger tried to get through to our cities, and to get to Russian cities in search of food. And there was an order of the Kiev OGPU for the Kiev ZAGS (Bureau of civil status records) to not record 5.5 thousand corpses of dead peasants in the streets of the city in the 1933. During the German occupation, thousands of inhabitants of Kiev went to the neighboring villages to change their their household things for food.

The Moscow authorities for a very long time tell everyone about the terrible plans of the Nazis against the peoples of the USSR. And Ukrainians have the opportunity to compare the realities of Nazi and Moscow Bolshevik occupation of Ukraine. And it is difficult to say which of these occupations has caused us more human and moral damage

Hunger came again to Ukraine, when the Moscow authorities came back here. It was a terrible famine of 1946-1947, which claimed about a million Ukrainian lives.

Meanwhile, in 1946, 350,000 tons of grain was exported from the USSR to the Romania, in 1947 - 600,000 tons of grain - to the Czechoslovak Republic, during those two years Poland received 900,000 tons of grain from the Soviet Union

Голодомор в Україні (1946—1947) — Вікіпедія

In July 1942 Koch ordered the German army to confiscate all food from the peasants
To begin with, the German policy in Ukraine was the product of serious contradictions between Minister of Eastern Territories Rosenberg and Gauleiter of the Reich Commissariat of Ukraine Koch, who formally submitted to Rosenberg, although he tried to act independently of Rosenberg. Koch was known for contempt for the Ukrainians and for all Slavs, and Rosenberg can be considered an Ukrainophile. And the Dutch historian Karel Cornelis Berkhoff, who studied the German occupation of Ukraine, came to the conclusion that Ukraine did not know such active Ukrainization as it was during the years of the German occupation.

It is clear that the Germans pretty much plundered Ukraine. But the Russian occupation authorities plundered Ukrainian villagers many times stronger before the WWII. And I an sure that this is a historical fact.

I very much doubt that Koch could give an order to the German army to withdraw all grain from the Ukrainian peasants. The Germans did not withdraw all the grain from them at all. In addition, German soldiers sat in cities in their garrisons, and in 1942 there were too few of them in Ukraine to execute this order. Moreover, the countryside in our Right Bank was almost universally controlled by “Ukrainian nationalists”. And the overwhelming majority of the German police — the Schutsmanshaft — in 1942 were Ukrainians.

In addition to the zealous Nazis like Koch, in the German environment - and above all in the Wehrmacht - there were a lot of completely loyal Germans to the Ukrainians. And I have heard many times from those who survived the German occupation here about the normal or even friendly relations of the local population and the German soldiers and officers stationed in our settlements. I think that the matter here is not so much in personal sympathy, but in the nightmare that survived the Ukrainian village under the Moscow authorities in the 1930s. The Germans looked like a lesser occupier

As a result - the absence of Soviet partisans in most of the territory of Ukraine. And where they were (Chernigov forests mostly) - in these partisan detachments there were few not only locals - but also Ukrainians in general. The Ukrainian "nationalist partisans", which first opposed the Germans, and then the Moscow authorities in Ukraine were ten times larger than the Soviet partisans

In Kiev district alone around 39,000 tons were confiscated in June 1942 and 27,000 tons the following month.
Is it a lot or a little? According to Soviet data, during the German occupation about 9 million tons of grain were taken to the Reich from Ukraine. Over 3 years of occupation, that is, approximately 3 million tons per year

For comparison, in 1940, the Ukrainian SSR has got a grain harvest of 21 million tons. I do not think that under the German occupiers figure fell sharply, since our peasants had much more grain grown by them under the Germans then under the Russians.

The 3 million tons that the Germans confiscated (in fact, they paid something to the kokhozes for this grain) is quite a lifting figure for our village. And the fact that there was no famine in it under the Germans is a reason for the thought.

Koch also promised that in the future Germans would own all Ukrainian farms (during the war, Germans more or less took control over most of the sovkhoz).
Plans that have never been fulfilled, predictions and forecasts in the discussion of historical issues are clearly not my hypostasis. You can discuss all this with someone else. I can only say that the Nazis tried to save the kolkhozes in Ukraine. They really liked this Russian idea. The best thing to pump out resources from the Ukrainian village the Nazis could not invent
 
Nov 2015
1,572
Kyiv
#98
Dir face up to the fact , you are are a Russophobe
OK that's your Shtick
own to it and live ever after ,
there is more to life that being a neocon scratching old wounds to make them bleed anew
I am no bigger and no less Russophobe than the Russians themselves were Germanophobes at the time when Germany was fighting against Russia in WWII. Now this is quite a reasonable and quite natural state for Ukrainians. Russophobia. Russians themselves like to call Russophobia a completely adequate response to the nasty things that Russia has created and does against its neighboring countries and peoples.

In fact, there is no phobia and any other pathology. How they say in Russia - for what they fought - and ran into it. За что боролись - на то и напоролись.

And we had to reopen old wounds from the day Russia climbed up with its tanks and guns to us. And for starters, she pulled one of the best parts of our sovereign territory. And all Russian citizens vigorously exulted about this. And then she occupied the main industrial region of Ukraine - Donbass. And then we had to remember what Russia was doing here over the past 100 years. Russia itself made us remember all this

And I do not think that you - in my background - caresses your soul about the 27 Australian citizens killed by the Russian Buk in the Ukrainian sky
 
Nov 2015
1,572
Kyiv
#99
And then you take into account German plans like the Hunger Plan and Lebensraum and understand that the Germans were no better than the Soviets.

I think in some things the German nazis were worse to Ukrainians and in some things - the Russian Bolshevism

Do you know what the fundamental difference between Russia and Germany is in this matter? The difference is that the Germans in Germany have long sincerely repented for the crimes of their regime and recognized their national guilt. In Russia, there is not even a shadow of some remorse. Moreover, to this day they are trying to completely deny the very fact of these massive crimes and Russia's involvement in them

I was convinced of this hundreds of times during an intensive discussion of historical subjects with the Russians. And in their PR too
 
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Nov 2015
1,572
Kyiv
Molotov pro-German? lol
FYI, Molotov was very surprised when Stalin informed him that he is going to meet Ribbentrop in Moscow(!). He actually thought that Stalin was joking.
- Molotov was neither pro-German nor anti-German. No wonder that someone of his surround called him a stone ass. He zealously fulfilled everything Stalin ordered him to do. These people did not have a fundamental conviction. Today, the Kremlin cursed German Nazis. And tomorrow they congratulated Hitler on the arrival of the Wehrmacht in Paris. Before that the Nazis heartily congratulated Stalin on his birthday. Delighted by the congratulations, Stalin said that the friendship of the peoples of Germany, sealed with blood has every reason to be long and lasting.

What kind of blood did he mention? The blood shed by Germans and Russians in battles in the Polish campaign. First military campaign in World War II

 

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