Should Europeans offer their apologies for their colonization?

Should the European apologize for their colonization?

  • Yes

    Votes: 24 10.8%
  • No

    Votes: 129 57.8%
  • No, but educate the European children more about this subject

    Votes: 70 31.4%

  • Total voters
    223
  • This poll will close: .

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,090
Sydney
I'm not saying mother countries brought democracy , I'm saying they brought the IDEA of democracy
this is valid for all of modern society concept which became a necessity for nation state
as for Persian and Arabs contributions to the modern world , yes I know about it
( the modern numbers were from India , the Arabs transmitted them )
so what , I'm not saying Europe invented everything , that's not how progress work

keep in mind that by the 17th century Arabs and Persians were in stultified societies which had stopped progressing
societies do stagnate if lacking the dynamism of contradiction and opposition

the historical function of colonialism was explicitly to break old forms of power which were an impediment
it allowed the Persian and Arabs societies to escape from the intellectual comatose state in which they had fallen
 
Likes: Gvelion
Sep 2016
918
Georgia
Quoting MAGolding :
The Ottoman Empire ruled most of the Balkan Peninsular in Europe for centuries, and thus ruled about 466,273.6 square kilometers, or 0.0458 of Europe. It also ruled large parts of Hungary, Slovakia, & Romania in Europe. The Ottomans made the Khanate of Crimea a vassal state in 1475, and the Khanate of Crimea claimed the right to collect tribute from Russia. European Russia looks like about half of all Europe.

The Ottomans first gained territory in Europe in 1355. They defeated Serbian coalitions at the Maritsa in 1371 and at Kosovo in 1389. They conquered most of Bulgaria by 1393, and captured the two rival Bulgarian Emperors in 1395 and 1396. The first of several unsuccessful crusades against the Ottomans was defeated in 1396. The first Ottoman siege of Constantinople lasted from 1930-1402.

From 1438 onward the electors always (except for once) elected a Habsburg ruler in southeastern Germany as emperor, no doubt because the Habsburg territories were the closest to the Ottomans and the most affected by Ottoman raids. Ottoman armies besieged Vienna in 1529 and 1683.

The Ottoman empire spread fear far beyond its borders. The Tatars of the Khanate of Crimea raided Russia, Poland/Lithuania, and other parts of Eastern Europe for slaves for centuries. Tatar slave raids in East Slavic lands - Wikipedia

The Ottoman vassal states in the western Mediterranean sent out Corsairs or Barbary Pirates to raid Christian ships and coastlines for slaves. Many coastlines in the western Mediterranean still have watchtowers and other defenses against Barbary pirates, and many coastal regions were depopulated as people moved inland to escaped the raids. Most European countries had charitable organizations to buy the freedom of (some of) their people enslaved in the Barbary states.

The Barbary pirates didn't limit their raids to the Mediterranean Sea but also attacked ships and coastlines in the Atlantic.

For example, Jan Janszoon von Haarlem (c. 1570-c. 1641), a Dutchman who became the Muslim captain Murat Reis the younger, led the Sack of Baltimore in Ireland in 1631, as well as raids on Iceland in 1627.

Sack of Baltimore - Wikipedia

Turkish Abductions - Wikipedia

It has been estimated that over the centuries a few million Europeans were abducted and enslaved by the Ottoman Turks and their dependents and allies.

So the Ottoman Empire oppressed a significant percentage of Europe for centuries, and for centuries spread the fear of Ottoman conquest far beyond its borders, and for centuries Europeans tens, hundreds, or even thousands of kilometers or miles beyond its borders lived in terror of being enslaved by Ottoman subjects.
 
Dec 2011
1,301
You are in a history forum. You should know better that Arabs and Persians were great at Mathematics and other scientific fields once.
Some Persians and a few Arabs were great mathematicians and proto-scientists. Europeans brought high-level institutionalization of science, of its application and of the diffusion of its results through compulsory schooling, trade in goods and technologies, and mass media/communication. Yes, Islamic scholars achieved great things in the intellectual history of some scientific disciplines, but this was hardly more than low level mathematics and proto-science. This does in no way negate the historical fact that high level mathematics and science was brought by Europeans. Even today, the knowledge transfer primarily runs from the Western World to the Islamic World, and not the other way around. And this constant falling back into "oh yeah? we had some scientists, too, a 1000 years back" is one of the main reasons for the prolonged catch up of the region. Just look at East Asia, people there took the position of: "oh yeah? well, we acknowledge you did great things, but we will adopt them, learn them, and then we will make them better".
 
Mar 2016
748
Antalya
Some Persians and a few Arabs were great mathematicians and proto-scientists. Europeans brought high-level institutionalization of science, of its application and of the diffusion of its results through compulsory schooling, trade in goods and technologies, and mass media/communication. Yes, Islamic scholars achieved great things in the intellectual history of some scientific disciplines, but this was hardly more than low level mathematics and proto-science. This does in no way negate the historical fact that high level mathematics and science was brought by Europeans. Even today, the knowledge transfer primarily runs from the Western World to the Islamic World, and not the other way around.
There is no such thing as "proto-Science". or "high-level" science. You either employ scientific methodology or you do not. And this is coming from who is trained in formal sciences and published in indexed journals (SCI). The Persian and Arabic mathematicians employed scientific methodology. The difference for Europeans was widespread institutionalization of scientific methodology. What Europeans did is a quantum-leap, I do not deny that. Like at all. You might want to re-read what I was addressing in that post, instead of assuming I am attacking to Europeans. That's not what I mean, not even close.

And this constant falling back into "oh yeah? we had some scientists, too, a 1000 years back" is one of the main reasons for the prolonged catch up of the region. Just look at East Asia, people there took the position of: "oh yeah? well, we acknowledge you did great things, but we will adopt them, learn them, and then we will make them better".
This part of your post is pointless. I do not have an attitude of "but we did great things too". I am neither Arab nor Persian. I agree with "East Asian" attitude. That's what everyone should strive to do.
 
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sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,090
Sydney
actually , scientific discourse and reasoning was invented by the Greeks and perfected in European universities
as for Arab achievement , one must consider that after a period of brilliance they became quite ossified
the last sparks of creativity were extinguished by the time of the ottoman empire
no Ibn Kaldun or Avincella for centuries would indicate serious stagnation
 
Mar 2016
748
Antalya
actually , scientific discourse and reasoning was invented by the Greeks and perfected in European universities
as for Arab achievement , one must consider that after a period of brilliance they became quite ossified
the last sparks of creativity were extinguished by the time of the ottoman empire
no Ibn Kaldun or Avincella for centuries would indicate serious stagnation
What do you mean by scientific reasoning? If you mean scientific methodology. Then yes, it was formalized by Europeans but it does not mean prior scientists did not employ scientific methodology. The formalization is the quantum-leap I am talking about, by the way. What was great about Europe is that they formalized the scientific methodology but most importantly established it as modus operandi of academic discussion. You either had to reason and then provide evidence to your reasoning or be dismissed. This was huge.

I must admit, thought, the terms being used here are quite alien to scientific nomenclature.
 
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sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,090
Sydney
I will conceed to you on my fast and loose vocabulary ,
on the subject of reasoned ,contradictory discourse one of the factor was that institutions such as universities and monasteries
would have a discussion on a subject for centuries
one of them was on earth centrism or heliocentrism ,
it started with Aristotle rejecting heliocentrism
pretty cogent arguments were presented back and forth over the middle age
none of which based on religion all of them based on evidence , logic and/or observation
 
Dec 2015
482
Middle East
2) Assad is a secular leader and is opposed by (and opposes) islamists, of course they will support him.
Are you trying to belittle their support? But yes who in his or her right mind would support western backed islamists who have one job only: to push out of the region every single non-Sunni and then give away the oil for free to the americans like the Saudis???
3) Around 25 million - but in oldest Muslim countries, there is zero of them. Christianity in the Middle East - Wikipedia
Oldest Muslim country like Najd and Hejaz? These regions didn't have sizable Christian coummunities to begin with

As for native non-Christian people, they were usually pagan or polytheist, and those are easier to convert than monotheists
same applies to Najd and Hejaz

. Even so, there were still pagans in Greece as late as 10th century or so.
I remember having read that there were pagans in Yemen until the 18th century

4) European imperialism was significantly preceded by Muslim imperialism, partly because "Europe" as a geopolitical entity only came into being thanks to Islam... up until then, Western civilization was Mediterranean civilization, not European one. European civilization came about as a consequence of loss of Northern Africa and Middle East to Islam.
DItto.... The Middle East turned into muslim majority in the 10th century 300 years after the muslim conquests at the exact same time Europe turned into christian majority.... This wasn't a coincidence. Had the Europeans not hijacked Christianity, the Middle East would probably still have a christian majority.
5) Any smart person will reject any form of imperialism, including things that go with imperialism such as multiculturalism.
sure, I also strongly reject the current islamist imperialism which is a tool of the west to push out every non-sunni and then steal oil. On the surface sunnis and americans appear to be enemies, but behind the doors they work closely together to push out every non-sunni. In the begining of the so-called "syrian uprising" the sunnis were yelling "christians to beirut, the alawites to the grave" all the while western leaders were busy screaming "assad must go!" and crying rivers of tears for the so-called sunni "rebels".
 
May 2019
11
Portugal
I agree that this idea of apologizing for something our ancestors did is stupid, Because we dont have to apologize they also dont have to apologize to us for something their ancestors did to us. I as an Iberian cant logically tell Arabs and Berbers to apologize for the muslim conquests in my homeland. As we cant apologize for the conquests we made in their lands.
 

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