Should Europeans offer their apologies for their colonization?

Should the European apologize for their colonization?

  • Yes

    Votes: 27 11.6%
  • No

    Votes: 134 57.5%
  • No, but educate the European children more about this subject

    Votes: 72 30.9%

  • Total voters
    233
  • This poll will close: .

mark87

Ad Honorem
Jan 2014
2,046
Santiago de Chile
it's an interesting point. When Europeans went all over the world in the colonial period, they didn't respect local laws, but demanded that the locals conformed to theirs. If the locals didn't have paper deeds and titles to property, then it was fair game. In the 19th century, a merchant by the name of Charles Townsend refused to bow and get out of the way of a Japanese daimyo's procession, resulting in hm being cut down, and triggering the Anglo-Satsuma war. In Asia, foreigners in China, Japan and other countries could not be tried under local laws, but rather their own laws.

Even today, there are remnants of this. When Australian tourists get caught smuggling drugs in South East Asia, or a British tourist breaks Egypt's drug laws and gets sentenced to a long prison term as per the local penal code, there are large protests. As in "your laws are barbaric, our nationals shouldn't be bound by them".

If a national of a foreign country broke our drug laws we would expect them, to be punished according to our laws.

So why should immigrants respect our laws if we don't respect theirs?

It's simple - because it's the world we live in today. Generally, it's a principle that you respect the local laws when you travel somewhere. If you take naked selfies on a sacred mountain, take a "memento" from a former death camp, insult the local monarch, or demand that girls get taught separately from boys om a Western society, you get what yo deserve. But the principle runs both ways. If we expect them to respect our ;aws. then we should respect theirs.
It is still a very biased way to look at history, as if only Europeans were the ones to colonize, conquer, subject others to their laws or in general commit misdeeds and atrocities. After reading this piece I went and looked at certain historically processes, The Barbary slave trade was only ended for example when the french conquered said states in north Africa. Are they going to pay reparations for enslaving hundreds of thousands of Europeans? Are the Turks going to pay reparations to people from the Balkans or from eastern Europe for that slave trade? If the world becomes tit for tat then lets put everyone under the microscope not just the affluent western nations. Someone mentioned the reconquista, well forgive me for not feeling more sympathy for the Moores, after all they invaded the Iberian peninsula first and that looked a lot like colonialism and conquest to me, is there any indignation for that?
I have no sympathy for westerners who get caught with drugs in countries infamous for their stern drug policies, I don't agree with life imprisonment for small amount of drugs or capital punishment but those are the laws in those nations.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
33,641
T'Republic of Yorkshire
It is still a very biased way to look at history, as if only Europeans were the ones to colonize, conquer, subject others to their laws or in general commit misdeeds and atrocities. After reading this piece I went and looked at certain historically processes, The Barbary slave trade was only ended for example when the french conquered said states in north Africa. Are they going to pay reparations for enslaving hundreds of thousands of Europeans? Are the Turks going to pay reparations to people from the Balkans or from eastern Europe for that slave trade? If the world becomes tit for tat then lets put everyone under the microscope not just the affluent western nations. Someone mentioned the reconquista, well forgive me for not feeling more sympathy for the Moores, after all they invaded the Iberian peninsula first and that looked a lot like colonialism and conquest to me, is there any indignation for that?
The slave trades are not so much a matter of law but a matter of war. Should apologies be offered? Possibly yes. There's no reason why the trades you mentioned should be exempt from apologies, if one is demanded for the Atlantic slave trade.

The Jesuits enslaved large numbers of Japanese in the 16th century/ Do I expect an apology from the Catholic Church? No, because Hideyoshi reacted by banning them, burning Catholics at the stake and becoming friendly with the Dutch.

I was talking about mutual recognition of laws.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,478
Sydney
" The Jesuits enslaved large numbers of Japanese in the 16th century "

I was under the impression that Xavier and his brothers converted Japanese "eta" the untouchables of Japanese society ,
following the practice of the apostles in ancient Rome.
they were telling them that in the sight of God they were equal to the greatest Daimiyo

Jesuits had a bad reputation in the 18th century , but I've never heard them charged with participating in the slave trade
In the Americas , all their works were to promote the locals , especially the most destitute
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
33,641
T'Republic of Yorkshire
" The Jesuits enslaved large numbers of Japanese in the 16th century "

I was under the impression that Xavier and his brothers converted Japanese "eta" the untouchables of Japanese society ,
following the practice of the apostles in ancient Rome.
they were telling them that in the sight of God they were equal to the greatest Daimiyo

Jesuits had a bad reputation in the 18th century , but I've never heard them charged with participating in the slave trade
In the Americas , all their works were to promote the locals , especially the most destitute
I'm not talking about conversion, I'm talking about slavery.
Slavery in Japan - Wikipedia
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,451
Portugal
That the Portuguese traded Japanese slaves is not new. They traded any kind of slaves. The link you posted only states that “Hideyoshi blamed the Portuguese and Jesuits for this slave trade and banned Christian proselytizing as a result.” In other words, it mentions that they were accused by Hideyoshi, it doesn’t mention that they did slave trade in Japan. It also refers “Japanese slave women were even sold as concubines to Asian lascar and African crewmembers, along with their European counterparts serving on Portuguese ships trading in Japan, mentioned by Luis Cerqueira, a Portuguese Jesuit, in a 1598 document.” But here the Jesuit is the chronicler not the trader.

Both Chinese and Japanese women slaves had a high demand in the Portuguese India and even in Portugal. Not sure to what point the Jesuits were involved in this. The link doesn’t enlighten us on that.

And unless I missed some source, the link also doesn’t mention numbers of slaves.

" The Jesuits enslaved large numbers of Japanese in the 16th century "

I was under the impression that Xavier and his brothers converted Japanese "eta" the untouchables of Japanese society ,
following the practice of the apostles in ancient Rome.
they were telling them that in the sight of God they were equal to the greatest Daimiyo

Jesuits had a bad reputation in the 18th century , but I've never heard them charged with participating in the slave trade
In the Americas , all their works were to promote the locals , especially the most destitute
The Jesuits were against the enslavement of the Indians, not against the enslavement of the Black Africans. If I recall correctly they participated in the Atlantic slave trade. I am not sure about the Japanese slave trade.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
33,641
T'Republic of Yorkshire
That the Portuguese traded Japanese slaves is not new. They traded any kind of slaves. The link you posted only states that “Hideyoshi blamed the Portuguese and Jesuits for this slave trade and banned Christian proselytizing as a result.” In other words, it mentions that they were accused by Hideyoshi, it doesn’t mention that they did slave trade in Japan. It also refers “Japanese slave women were even sold as concubines to Asian lascar and African crewmembers, along with their European counterparts serving on Portuguese ships trading in Japan, mentioned by Luis Cerqueira, a Portuguese Jesuit, in a 1598 document.” But here the Jesuit is the chronicler not the trader.
It was the Jesuits who were established in Japan, not private Portuguese traders. Most trade wet through certain ports, such as the Jesuit controlled Nagasaki, so at the very least, none of it happened without the complicity of the Jesuits.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,451
Portugal
It was the Jesuits who were established in Japan, not private Portuguese traders. Most trade wet through certain ports, such as the Jesuit controlled Nagasaki, so at the very least, none of it happened without the complicity of the Jesuits.
The trade was controlled in theory by the Portuguese crown trough the “"nau do trato”, the Japanese called it the “Black Ship” due to its hull colour by the caulking used. But private traders from Macau (and Manila) also were active. The smuggling was intense in the Portuguese colonies in the East. If the smuggling was made trough the “nau do trato” or in other ships that is another theme that it would be interesting to know in detail.

About the Jesuit complicity or at least complacency you may be right. But from complacency to trader goes a wide step. Anyway don’t recall reading anything about the numbers, so calling it large, comparing to a century (the 16th) in that Portugal traded some 150 thousand people from Africa to America, may be an exaggeration or a lack of an overall perspective.