Should other countries give Uyghurs the option of asylum in order for them to escape Chinese oppression?

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,131
SoCal
#41
And in this spirit of fairness, wouldn't you say that people should cease comparing the Uighur situation to that of the Holocaust? In fact, people should really stop comparing Hitler and the Nazis to most situations that arise that they don't like, don't you think?
Also, as a side note, the Holocaust didn't actually begin (at least not on a large scale) until 1941. Before that Nazi Germany anti-Jewish campaign was more slow-motion and less brutal (in comparison to what would follow in the Holocaust). Thus, if f0ma was comparing the situation of the Uyghurs in China right now with the situation of Jews in Nazi Germany in the 1930s, then this analogy might actually have some merit. Again, the Holocaust itself didn't actually begin until 1941.
 

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
9,262
here
#42
I never said that Uyghur separatism didn't exist, nor that it wasn't a problem: in fact, I said: "Uyghur terrorism is and has been a very real threat to the wider population." Of course it is an issue, I just don't think it is the issue underpinning all this. I also said 'supposed' torture, forced labour and medical experiments. Reports from people who have escaped or survived the camps have repeatedly made claims about torture; one (Mihrigul Tursun) mentions what may be medical experiments. As more sources come up we can begin to corroborate these stories better, but it's pretty safe to say that torture at the very least is wide spread. Opinions differ on medical experimentation, but there have been reports:

Torture and possible medical experimentation:

Woman describes torture, beatings in Chinese detention camp

Torture:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...5fdd7aaef3c_story.html?utm_term=.3de67923c864
Interview: ‘I Lost All Hope of Surviving’
China Locks Up, Tortures Muslims in 'Re-education Camps'
Kazakh and Uyghur Detainees of Xinjiang ‘Re-education Camps’ Must ‘Eat Pork or Face Punishment’
PART III: Interview: ‘We tell them that they would be banned from seeing their family again.’
Memories of trauma, torture follow Xinjiang camp survivors
Former Xinjiang teacher claims brainwashing, abuse inside mass detention centers - CNN

Forced labour:

Western Companies Get Tangled in China’s Muslim Clampdown

Deaths in detention:

Uyghur Teenager Dies in Custody at Political Re-Education Camp
Uyghur Muslim Scholar Dies in Chinese Police Custody
More Than Two Dozen Uyghurs From One Xinjiang County Perished in Re-Education Camps
Two Uyghur Students Die in China’s Custody Following Voluntary Return From Egypt
Uyghur Farmer Dies in Jail Under Mysterious Circumstances
Jailed For Watching Islamic Video, Uyghur Dies in Police Custody
At Least Five Dead in Uyghur Prisoner Uprising (prison not camp(?), but some accounts say inmate was executed)
Young Uyghur Woman Dies in Detention in Xinjiang Political ‘Re-education Camp’

Oh, and something on crematoriums. Apparently to extinguish traditional Uyghur burials, but people already dying in the camps are being taken to them. I'm not suggesting an extermination program is underway, but as I mentioned crematoriums before in a rather off hand way before, I thought I'd share this too:

Xinjiang Rapidly Building Crematoria to Extinguish Uyghur Funeral Traditions



I don't know what comparisons other people here make with the Holocaust, nor do I consider that to be my problem. I choose my words carefully and I don't believe I have ever made a Holocaust comparison before - and certainly not made one lightly. When I compare the treatment of Uyghurs in China to Jews in Nazi Germany and Occupied Europe, I do so in all seriousness and knowing full well the weight those words carry. We are talking about the systemic eradication and cleansing of an ethnocultural people, using directly comparable tools and methods. No, we haven't (yet?) reached a point of mass executions, but the current persecution of the Uyghurs is entirely analogous to the situation faced by German Jewry in the 1930s at the very least.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...hinas-actions-could-be-precursors-to-genocide
https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/holocaust-04172019151958.html
It's been explained to you ad nauseum why the comparison doesn't hold. Performing mental gymnastics isn't going to change that.
 

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
9,262
here
#44
I think that he's talking about Nazi Germany's treatment of Jews in the 1930s--not in 1941 and afterwards.
He said: "We are talking about the systematic eradication and cleansing of an ethnocultural people"

Does that sound like a part of the Holocaust (which didn't begin according to you until 1941) or not?
 
Likes: Futurist

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
9,262
here
#46
But it was in my question: is "state cruelty" justified?

Cruelty not being the goal, the goal being a higher one, a noble one, justifies cruelty?
And I answered it. Here it is again, I guess you missed it.

And as to whether or not cruelty can be justified, I think so, and it depends on who you ask I suppose, depends on the situation.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,131
SoCal
#48
He said: "We are talking about the systematic eradication and cleansing of an ethnocultural people"

Does that sound like a part of the Holocaust (which didn't begin according to you until 1941) or not?
Well, the Nazis did try to cleanse Germany from Jews even before 1941; before 1941, the Nazi policy was that Germany's Jewish population should be compelled and pressured to emigrate en masse. That could be considered as being a form of soft ethnic cleansing.
 

Fox

Ad Honorem
Oct 2011
3,937
Korea
#50
It does seem that China cares more about being pragmatic than it cares about being perceived as humane or compassionate. Although, I don't necessarily see the two as being mutually exclusive; couldn't one make the argument that China is behaving in this way in an effort to take care of its population overall? If so, then in that regard they are doing the humane, compassionate thing.
I suspect that the Chinese leadership does view their handling of this matter as seeing to the long-term interests of their county and its citizens, and from that perspective, they might view their conduct as optimal, perhaps even compassionate in a "tough love" sense, like a parent who is punishing their child despite not truly wishing to do so, knowing that correction is in order. I suppose it depends upon by what standard one wishes to measure compassion. From a western perspective, the individual is often considered the proper unit of consideration, and locking up individuals on the basis of their political attitudes does not seem very compassionate, which is what motivated my comment. On the other hand, the Chinese like to stress that they have a different world view in this regard, so they may well see the matter as you describe.

And what you said about the West putting their money where their mouth is, I agree, and I think that sentiment could be applied to lots of different situations around the globe; I think the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a great example of this, would you agree?
Absolutely.

It's certainly a myopic way to look at things that isn't helpful and I wonder how much of it is people being disingenuous? Is this turning a blind eye to the greater situation intentional in order to be politically correct? Or is it an honest oversight?
I suspect a lot of it has to do with the underlying costs. Taking effective action regarding these situations involves not only economic costs, but also socio-political costs like tension and division. Look at how much the American media and business, for example, has push backed fairly hard against mere tariffs on Chinese goods instituted in hopes of producing more favorable long-term trade outcomes for the USA, despite the costs involved being relatively minor on a national scale. Even beginning to persuade the same broad demographic that America must completely embargo China not for America's own economic interests, but for the sake of the Uyghurs, would be an immense project in its own right, and every day of economic pain brought about by such a policy would make such persuasion harder to maintain. Disciplined unity on a national level is one of the weak points of ideological individualism, and doubly so when "diversity" is factored into the matter, so we should probably not be surprised. In fact, that on its own is a partial explanation of why the Chinese act as they do: they want to minimize the extent to which they suffer from that weak point in the long term.