Should People with no Understanding of Platonist Teleology, Arithmetic, Geometry, and so forth, even be allowed attend University?

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AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,366
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Sure, why not? Depending on the faculty they could even learn Platonist Teleology at Uni ... Anyway, as for I know Arithmetic and Geometry are matter of study in low level schools, regarding Platonist Teleology, nope, here in Italy you need to study in a classical high school to know Plato. So that a minority of the persons with a diploma, following your suggestion, would be allowed to attend University.

Reality is that to become engineer, doctor, biologist, archaeologist, physicist ... Platonist Teleology is not that useful.
 
Aug 2019
89
North Dublin
Sure, why not? Depending on the faculty they could even learn Platonist Teleology at Uni ... Anyway, as for I know Arithmetic and Geometry are matter of study in low level schools, regarding Platonist Teleology, nope, here in Italy you need to study in a classical high school to know Plato. So that a minority of the persons with a diploma, following your suggestion, would be allowed to attend University.

Reality is that to become engineer, doctor, biologist, archaeologist, physicist ... Platonist Teleology is not that useful.
Why not? Because without Teleology, there is no why, or why not, in the first place. Allow me to explain...

For Sokrates, & Plato, εὐδαιμονία (long-term happiness) is their τέλος (end), and since this can only be achieved through σοφία (wisdom), σοφία is therefore virtue. φιλοσοφία (philosophy) is made up of two words... φιλο (love) and σοφία... love of wisdom. Without this basic teleological precept of valuing σοφία as virtue, universities actually have no function, but to feed people's hunger for knowledge, which, without context, is just meaningless.​

Well, if they don't learn it beforehand, Homer, the pre-socratics, and Plato, as well as auncient history leading up to him, from Mesopotamia, Aegypt, China, India, Greece, and so forth, should all be MANDATORY in the first year. Perhaps they could make a preparatory course for university, which dealt with this, for those who did not attend classical high schools.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,366
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Why not? Because without Teleology, there is no why, or why not, in the first place. Allow me to explain...

For Sokrates, & Plato, εὐδαιμονία (long-term happiness) is their τέλος (end), and since this can only be achieved through σοφία (wisdom), σοφία is therefore virtue. φιλοσοφία (philosophy) is made up of two words... φιλο (love) and σοφία... love of wisdom. Without this basic teleological precept of valuing σοφία as virtue, universities actually have no function, but to feed people's hunger for knowledge, which, without context, is just meaningless.​

Well, if they don't learn it beforehand, Homer, the pre-socratics, and Plato, as well as auncient history leading up to him, from Mesopotamia, Aegypt, China, India, Greece, and so forth, should all be MANDATORY in the first year. Perhaps they could make a preparatory course for university, which dealt with this, for those who did not attend classical high schools.
In Anglo-Saxon world I doubt you could obtain this: their universities tend to be really pragmatic and the program of study usually is functional to the purpose of the faculty. The administration of MIT could ask you "How can Platonist Teleology help a student to become a better electrical engineer?" They would probably make you note that they've got a nice faculty of philosophy for that [Linguistics & Philosophy, Course 24].
 
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Aug 2019
89
North Dublin
In Anglo-Saxon world I doubt you could obtain this: their universities tend to be really pragmatic and the program of study usually is functional to the purpose of the faculty. The administration of MIT could ask you "How can Platonist Teleology help a student to become a better electrical engineer?" They would probably make you note that they've got a nice faculty of philosophy for that [Linguistics & Philosophy, Course 24].
Their universities are "pragmatic" only in the sense that they fulfill some neurotic obsession. True pragmatism is defined by Platonist Logic, one of the Trivia, and the most important one. How can Platonist Teleology help a student become a better electrical engineer? Well, my response is that Electrical Engineering is subject to Logic, Logic is not subject to Applied Geometry. They have a faculty of philosophy? All faculties should be philosophic. What he is describing is the timocratic, oligarchic, democratic professionalization of arbitrary skills, to suit the neuroses of individual idiots.
 
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AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,366
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Their universities are "pragmatic" only in the sense that they fulfill some neurotic obsession. True pragmatism is defined by Platonist Logic, one of the Trivia, and the most important one. How can Platonist Telology help a student become a better electrical engineer? Well, my response is that Electrical Engineering is subject to Logic, Logic is not subject to Applied Geometry. They have a faculty of philosophy? All faculties should be philosophic. What he is describing is the timocratic, oligarchic, democratic professionalization of arbitrary skills, to suit the neuroses of individual idiots.
Don't offend the reputation of one of the most prestigious universities around the world on Historum.

This said, you haven't answered to my question: electrical engineering is based on exact [experimental] science and on the usage of intelligence to apply that science in a particular technological fied. Can philosophy help? Scientific faculties make students develop the capacity to solve problems, to study, to develop theories [so to reason, even to use imagination, to invent] and then to make experiments and to observe reality to find out if what they have "imagined" can be real, can work. This is the "philosophical" part of the work of a scientist.
 
Aug 2019
89
North Dublin
Don't offend the reputation of one of the most prestigious universities around the world on Historum.

This said, you haven't answered to my question: electrical engineering is based on exact [experimental] science and on the usage of intelligence to apply that science in a particular technological fied. Can philosophy help? Scientific faculties make students develop the capacity to solve problems, to study, to develop theories [so to reason, even to use imagination, to invent] and then to make experiments and to observe reality to find out if what they have "imagined" can be real, can work. This is the "philosophical" part of the work of a scientist.
Electrical Engineering is based on applied geometry, ONE of the QUADRIVIA, which should only be learnt AFTER the TRIVIA. Logic does not help Geometry. Geometry is dictated by Logic. Without this basic nugget of wisdom, you are useless. That is not philosophy, that is sophistry.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,366
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Electrical Engineering is based on applied geometry, ONE of the QUADRIVIA, which should only be learnt AFTER the TRIVIA. Logic does not help Geometry. Geometry is dictated by Logic. Without this basic nugget of wisdom, you are useless. That is not philosophy, that is sophistry.
Do you know Latin? "Quadrivia" is the plural of "Quadrivium". Already the Quadrivium containend 4 matters of study, you don't need to use the plural "Quadrivia" [the same about "Trivium" ... no need for "Trivia", which is plural]. How many Quadrivia do you know?
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,366
Italy, Lago Maggiore
In other words, it's better to say that geometry is one of the four matters of the Quadrivium ... [if we want to be pedant ...].
 
Aug 2019
89
North Dublin
In other words, it's better to say that geometry is one of the four matters of the Quadrivium ... [if we want to be pedant ...].
I do not have sufficient command of Latin to tell the difference. The point remains, though.
 
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