Should People with no Understanding of Platonist Teleology, Arithmetic, Geometry, and so forth, even be allowed attend University?

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Asherman

Forum Staff
May 2013
3,412
Albuquerque, NM
Filth, can ye give us less cut & paste, and more of your thought, analysis, and tentative conclusions on topics? You've jumped from Classical Greek philosophy to an on-line video-clip apparently focused on the Medieval Period in Europe. State your thesis, provide the basis for your analysis and conclusions, provide sources as appropriate, and give other History nerds something to respond to. One liners, just won't hack it here for very long. Knowing a bit of Greek and a smattering of Latin is not enough.
 

Willempie

Ad Honorem
Jul 2015
5,563
Netherlands
Logic defines exactly what you are referring to. Logic defines what it means for something to be, or not be, helpful.

What was debunked? Please shower me with your omniscience, my proletarian scholar. & please do tell me more about philosophy. You seem to know a lot about it.
Ok let me do it real quick:
Nothing he writes is in any way falsifiable.

Nothing he writes is logical (as in applying logical rules). Ie when he explores justice, he goes on a raving mad description of the ideal republic (with a myriad of assumptions and unwarranted conclusions) and then concludes that since there are 4 virtues, justice is the one that is not named yet.
Or with the discussion of forms
Plato said:
Socrates: Well, then, are things called by the same name, whether they are bigger or smaller than one another, like or unlike with respect to that to which that name applies?
Glaucon: Alike.
Socrates: Then a just man won’t differ at all from a just city in respect to the forms of justice; rather he’ll be like the city.
Glaucon: He will.”
So a city is just a big man?
His works are littered with such examples, though usually they take at least 10 pages.

His idea of doing science is just to lie down and think.

Lastly he never ever makes clear what his theory supposedly is. It is just discussion (which is fine by me btw), but not a theory. You may wanna compare it with "Sic et non"
 

Kirialax

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
4,903
Blachernai
Should you be allowed to study Plato without having read his works in Greek? If so, when should education in Greek become mandatory? One needs to do quite a bit of work to get through Kritias.
 
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Jul 2019
800
New Jersey
Ok let me do it real quick:
Nothing he writes is in any way falsifiable.
Not everything needs to be falsifiable, particularly within the realm of philosophy. Just because that's an effective rule for the empirical sciences, doesn't mean that it's an appropriate standard for other disciplines. For example, it's not falsifiable to state that my mother loves me, but it's still true as far as I'm concerned. Likewise, it's not falsifiable that nature follows fixed rules, but it is taken as an axiomatic postulate in the empirical sciences.

What's more, one can falsify Platonic ideas - via syllogism.

Nothing he writes is logical (as in applying logical rules). Ie when he explores justice, he goes on a raving mad description of the ideal republic (with a myriad of assumptions and unwarranted conclusions) and then concludes that since there are 4 virtues, justice is the one that is not named yet.
If that's the way you read the Republic then I'm sorry to say that you've read Plato extremely superficially. There are layers and layers of irony and literary device in the Platonic Dialogues. There's a reason Plato never uses his own voice, and presents Socrates as one of the most ironic philosophers of all time. Plato speaks between the lines and subtly, sometimes agreeing with Socrates and sometimes disagreeing, but always presenting a nuanced view. One could write books on this - I suggest you read Leo Strauss' work on Plato to get a deeper view.

Or with the discussion of forms
What's wrong with that? One may disagree with Socrates' conclusions, but it's one which many of us subconsciously internalize.

Lastly he never ever makes clear what his theory supposedly is. It is just discussion (which is fine by me btw), but not a theory.
And that is precisely the point. To understand Plato properly, you need to understand what he means to tell his readers with the location of the discussion, the age and identities of the speakers, and the strategies Socrates uses to get through to them. You also need to constantly cross-reference the various dialogues to get a true sense of Socrates' irony and how Plato is filtering that through. In my opinion Plato's dialogues are one of the most magnificent and subtle philosophical works ever written by man.
 
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Aug 2019
89
North Dublin
Ok let me do it real quick:
Nothing he writes is in any way falsifiable.

Nothing he writes is logical (as in applying logical rules). Ie when he explores justice, he goes on a raving mad description of the ideal republic (with a myriad of assumptions and unwarranted conclusions) and then concludes that since there are 4 virtues, justice is the one that is not named yet.
Or with the discussion of forms

So a city is just a big man?
His works are littered with such examples, though usually they take at least 10 pages.

His idea of doing science is just to lie down and think.

Lastly he never ever makes clear what his theory supposedly is. It is just discussion (which is fine by me btw), but not a theory. You may wanna compare it with "Sic et non"
It's a metaphor...
 
Aug 2019
89
North Dublin
Filth, can ye give us less cut & paste, and more of your thought, analysis, and tentative conclusions on topics? You've jumped from Classical Greek philosophy to an on-line video-clip apparently focused on the Medieval Period in Europe. State your thesis, provide the basis for your analysis and conclusions, provide sources as appropriate, and give other History nerds something to respond to. One liners, just won't hack it here for very long. Knowing a bit of Greek and a smattering of Latin is not enough.
The Mediaeval University's pedagogy was based on Platonist precepts (Trivium, Quadrivium). I assumed an historian would be aware of this, but okay.
 

Asherman

Forum Staff
May 2013
3,412
Albuquerque, NM
... and the Mediaeval University is ... ? Is it accredited? What sort of standing does it have in the academic world? In any case, you've missed the point. Less cut & paste, more complete and better thought out posts that have some chance of leading to a better understanding of history, and less trying to impress.
 
Aug 2019
89
North Dublin
... and the Mediaeval University is ... ? Is it accredited? What sort of standing does it have in the academic world? In any case, you've missed the point. Less cut & paste, more complete and better thought out posts that have some chance of leading to a better understanding of history, and less trying to impress.
How do you mean? The medieval university obviously refers to the Christian university in Europe in the Middle Ages. You are obfuscating my point for your own narcissist reasons, and then claiming I am the one who is trying to impress?
 
Jul 2019
800
New Jersey
How do you mean? The medieval university obviously refers to the Christian university in Europe in the Middle Ages. You are obfuscating my point for your own narcissist reasons, and then claiming I am the one who is trying to impress?
He is asking why he should care about how the medieval universities worked. What is better about their method than the one currently used?
 
Aug 2019
89
North Dublin
He is asking why he should care about how the medieval universities worked. What is better about their method than the one currently used?
The teaching of the Trivium (Grammar, Logic, & Rhetoric), & Quadrivium (Arithmetic, Geometry, Music, & Astronomy).
 
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