Should the Illyrian language be brought back? *if possible*

Should the Illyrian language(s) be brought back *if possible*?


  • Total voters
    30
Status
Closed
Jul 2010
1,374
N/A
The ancestry of a person can often be straightforwardly interpreted,
e.g. many Balkaners exhibit Illyrian physical features, i.e. that aren't Slavic, Dalmatian or other (see previous pages).



The fact that you weren't able to perform even the simplest of searches perhaps shows your level of reticence and arrogance toward the topic.
Come on, there are people in Greece that have the skin colours as dark as the night that have been living in the region for hundreds if not thousands of years, these people in that particular region of Greece proudly identify as being black, and natively so, they predominately live in Xanthi. The colour of a persons skin does not and will not ever define what their identity is. This person speaks in a perfect native regional dialect of Greek, if you talked to them on the phone you wouldn't be able to tell any sort of difference. This man is a sheppard like the many that came before them and some in my direct ancestry. This is nothing unusual.



http://neoskosmos.com/news/en/greek-black-and-proud-avato?page=2

Then there are some who have red hair and blue eyes, blondes with fair skin, and many other combinations you can think of, this is nothing unusual. These multi-ethnic countries such as Greece are simply the result of the intermixing of people from a wide range of people within the area over thousands of years. These countries such as Greece are defined by the religion that holds the country not who they are based on the colour of their skin. All of these people are native residents of the modern state of Greece and rightfully so. These kinds of discussions mean absolutely nothing and only ever really end up in obnoxious animosity. I identify as much with this person as a person who is white as any other Greek person and culturally they are no different to what I am.

I said previously we are mostly Caucus people but these people regardless are little different to me and I don't play such games of separating out the differences.
 
Last edited:
Jan 2015
1,554
Bosnia and Herzegovina
There are two types of Albanians, one shorter and brunet, the other taller and more blond.
Well the tall ones must be predominantly gheg in the far north of the country where they mixed with the Serbs, but considering their overall male height is shorter by a whopping 10 centimeters (4 inches) on average compared to their northern neighbors I'd say these tall blonds are not a very large group.

In the case of Jews there is a clear genetic distinction that can be made. On the other hand we should be careful to say there is a clear genetic distinction between ancient and modern Greeks. I am a modern Greek, I know full well I have no genetic connection to the Minoans or their people and despite the unbroken connection to the Greek language, the modern Greek people are not the same as the ancient Greek people because Greek is not a race.
...
I said "more or less" for the purpose of avoiding going deeper into that topic, since it's prohibited.
 
Mar 2013
189
Netherlands
I am a modern Greek, I know full well I have no genetic connection to the Minoans or their people and despite the unbroken connection to the Greek language, the modern Greek people are not the same as the ancient Greek people because Greek is not a race.
How do you know a modern Greek is not related to the Minoans? To argue that Minoans have left no genetic trance of their presence in the region is very dubious. I mean, I would argue that the Minoans are to the Ancient Greeks what the Illyrians and Thracians are to the South Slavs today.

As for Greeks being related to the ancients. The question is to what extent the melting pot of today is similar to the melting pot of ancient times. No one has ever proven that the ancient Greeks were a uniform race. So one does not need to put the burden on the modern Greeks on being a uniform race either. What race?
Ancient Greeks, Romans, Phoenicians, Etruscans, Thracians. All of them were an accumulation of different subraces.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
6,160
Portugal
How do you know a modern Greek is not related to the Minoans? To argue that Minoans have left no genetic trance of their presence in the region is very dubious. I mean, I would argue that the Minoans are to the Ancient Greeks what the Illyrians and Thracians are to the South Slavs today.

As for Greeks being related to the ancients. The question is to what extent the melting pot of today is similar to the melting pot of ancient times. No one has ever proven that the ancient Greeks were a uniform race. So one does not need to put the burden on the modern Greeks on being a uniform race either. What race?
Ancient Greeks, Romans, Phoenicians, Etruscans, Thracians. All of them were an accumulation of different subraces.
Why are you being so racial? When we talk about Ancient Greece we talk about a culture, a society, a Civilization, not a race. That is even much more underlined in the Hellenistic period.
 
Jul 2010
1,374
N/A
How do you know a modern Greek is not related to the Minoans? To argue that Minoans have left no genetic trance of their presence in the region is very dubious. I mean, I would argue that the Minoans are to the Ancient Greeks what the Illyrians and Thracians are to the South Slavs today.

As for Greeks being related to the ancients. The question is to what extent the melting pot of today is similar to the melting pot of ancient times. No one has ever proven that the ancient Greeks were a uniform race. So one does not need to put the burden on the modern Greeks on being a uniform race either. What race?
Ancient Greeks, Romans, Phoenicians, Etruscans, Thracians. All of them were an accumulation of different subraces.
The fact is an entire civilisation just disappeared off the face of the map. I would say my actual connection to Minoans is tenuous at best. Just like my connection to Ghengis Khan is tenuous at best other than the fact that the Basarabs moved all the way through Europe to Hungary.

There is no uniform race in Greece, there never was really, as I said above you will find people in Greece that you would believe came all the way from Ireland with their red hair and blue eyes and then you would believe that others came from Africa. The thing is these people have been in the area for a significantly prolonged period of time and now they are no less rightful of being there as myself. My grandfather used to tell me the old stories of the Minoans, I'm circumspect it is part of the great narrative of Greek culture in itself, that does not mean I have to be in some way directly related to Minoans.

The nationalist element of race that exists in Greece now is ridiculous at this point. I wont be drawn into the race debate that sees some preposterous discussion that Greece is a country of 99.5% uniformity, it's not, it never was, that old line was drawn out after the failure of the proto-modern Greek state to recapture the boundaries of its traditional empire. Greek people are not uniform people, never have been, never will be. The end.

It should never be about the strength of the race to persist, it should be about the strength of the culture to persist. That it did despite 400 years of occupation is a testament to the strength of Greek identity. That's about as much as one needs to say about the matter.
 
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Naima

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
2,323
Venice
Albanian is *probably* a modern descendant of Illyrian, in the same way that Italian is basically modern Latin.

Languages evolve.
Italian is not modern latin, Latin has more in common with German than Italian for how much it evolved and changed over time. The grammar is completely different and its quite a complex language with all irregular forms.
On the Other hand German grammar is more similar to latin and even the sound pronounce.
The only difference lies in the root of the words wich of course in Italian stem directly from latin for the most part.
 

Shtajerc

Ad Honorem
Jul 2014
6,743
Lower Styria, Slovenia
Italian is not modern latin, Latin has more in common with German than Italian for how much it evolved and changed over time. The grammar is completely different and its quite a complex language with all irregular forms.
On the Other hand German grammar is more similar to latin and even the sound pronounce.
The only difference lies in the root of the words wich of course in Italian stem directly from latin for the most part.
I wonder why in many Western countries an Italian pronunciation of Latin is so popular? I like the classical pronunciation of Latin. It's interesting how the German word Kaiser is closer to the older pronunciation of Caesar, while Slovene cesar is closer to the younger Latin pronunciation.
 
Jul 2010
1,374
N/A
Latin was the lingua franca of Western Roman empire as Greek was, eventually, to the Eastern Roman empire, the half from which my genealogy comes from as a descendant of the Rumeliots nothing more and nothing less. So Latin became Romanised. In the mean time, the university professors in Australia used to laugh at my grandfather for his pronunciation of Greek as if there is one true academic pronunciation of the language. People in high places like uniformity. Of course we know from human nature nothing is uniform, and so to accept that a Roman spoke in one way is ridiculous without taking into account that Latin was the language of the high class for many hundreds of years with French and English a poor second and third in central Europe and in the British Isles.

But the argument continues none the less that we must somehow speak a pure form of what is now a mostly dead language and where even in the Romance languages, the majority of phrases that are purely Latin are archaic and you would have to be a native language proficiency speaker to identify them. But we have to speak the pure language none the less? OK... This I do not understand when you look at the map of any country, Australia no less where there isn't even a pure form of English, and three different types of identifiable English that are spoken in Australia alone (those spoken by the general population, the broad and less cultured, and the cultivated of the Queens English, somewhat more like a British accentuated language) there are always distinctions and yes the vernacular and spoken language is also distinct between each of them. But you would have to be an Australian to be able to identify these differences. From cultured to less cultured as below.





 
Last edited:
Mar 2013
189
Netherlands
The fact is an entire civilisation just disappeared off the face of the map. I would say my actual connection to Minoans is tenuous at best. Just like my connection to Ghengis Khan is tenuous at best other than the fact that the Basarabs moved all the way through Europe to Hungary.

There is no uniform race in Greece, there never was really, as I said above you will find people in Greece that you would believe came all the way from Ireland with their red hair and blue eyes and then you would believe that others came from Africa. The thing is these people have been in the area for a significantly prolonged period of time and now they are no less rightful of being there as myself. My grandfather used to tell me the old stories of the Minoans, I'm circumspect it is part of the great narrative of Greek culture in itself, that does not mean I have to be in some way directly related to Minoans.

The nationalist element of race that exists in Greece now is ridiculous at this point. I wont be drawn into the race debate that sees some preposterous discussion that Greece is a country of 99.5% uniformity, it's not, it never was, that old line was drawn out after the failure of the proto-modern Greek state to recapture the boundaries of its traditional empire. Greek people are not uniform people, never have been, never will be. The end.

It should never be about the strength of the race to persist, it should be about the strength of the culture to persist. That it did despite 400 years of occupation is a testament to the strength of Greek identity. That's about as much as one needs to say about the matter.
Let me put it succinct. In a previous post you argued that "the Greek people are not the same as the Ancient Greeks because they are not a race". Your own words. I actually agree with the fact that the Ancient Greeks were not a race. However, we can not deduce from the this notion that the modern Greeks and Ancient Greeks are not related.

As for the Minoans, surely even Ancient Greeks were not linear descendants of the Minoans, but perhaps most Ancient Greeks did have some Minoan ancestry. And modern Greeks may have some Minoan ancestry as well.

Tulius said:
Why are you being so racial? When we talk about Ancient Greece we talk about a culture, a society, a Civilization, not a race. That is even much more underlined in the Hellenistic period.
I wholeheartedly agree with that. But that doesn't mean that the modern Greeks as a whole can not be related to the people which belonged to that Culture/Language/Civilization in ancient times. They may be to an extent descended by the same mix of peoples who, as we tend to agree, can not be considered a race. Argentinians are not a race, but that doesn't mean that Argentinians a century from now can not be related to the Argentinians of today. Whether Argentinians can be considered a race or not is irrelevant. Same is true for the Greeks.
 
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