Should the US government institute some sort of forced savings with a wealth fund?

Jul 2016
8,180
USA
#11
I'm a project manager for a medical device company. We hire people out of the city who have to take two trains and a shuttle to get to work every day. The job consists of placing a label on a tyvek pouch. We pay them $12 an hour. Not much, but enough for them to continue making the trip. A lot of them have no prior experience in a manufacturing facility. We've promoted more than one to become a press operator out of that cell. It's a work ethic thing. These folks show up to work and put in the time every day.

After watching some of the crap these folks have to go through to work $12 an hour, I lost sympathy for those who complain about lack of government subsidy. There are opportunities out there for everyone, even those with criminal records. You just have to want to work and be motivated to finding a way.

If the government tried to take 40% of my paycheck for forced retirement.. LOL.
I have a bunch of friends that own various trades businesses. Plumbers, construction, etc. They pay between $15-25/hr for starting positions that are low skill manual labor positions, basically apprentice jobs, but they have loads of problems filling them. It seems nobody wants to work anymore. Those that do, most show up for a week or two and quit. Too hard. Or they can't pass a drug test, which is a major problem because MJ is everywhere, especially in working class culture, but most jobs have to do urine tests for liability and insurance purposes.

America doesn't have a job problem, or pay problem. It has a work ethic problem.
 
Likes: Bobbaloo
Oct 2010
4,844
DC
#12
Nobody should be retiring off a minimum wage job. Those positions are for unskilled work, nearly always entry level, requiring almost no real ability or work ethic. Any skill remotely of value means more than minimum wage. Minimum wage jobs are a job to do temporarily to pay the bills while looking for a better job. Those that can't get out of them are those who will have many other problems in life far beyond the ability to save for retirement, for them life will be extra hard because life is really tough for stupid people. Because someone who has to spend a life in minimum wage jobs is either very lazy or very stupid.



FYI, the working class includes people making ridiculously high hourly wages as skilled tradesman. it doesn't mean low wage earners, nor does it mean poor, it just means fixed pay. Anyone making a salary/wage is working class, to include white collar. A 20 year old trained as a welder can easily make $100,000/year for their first job. I know police officers who pull in over $200,000/year with overtime as patrolman (lowest rank), they're working class too, you think they're hurting?



If you're in your 30-40s and haven't invested in your own retirement, you deserve everything that happens to you. Bad decisions are supposed to have consequences, that's how responsibility works.
I have been long enough in this country to remember that minimum wage jobs were by students (irrespective of background) who wanted to make some money on the side for personal expenses on campus and such.

Over time, it has become a career for new immigrants and middle aged people (including the new immigrants) with people expected to think of such jobs as a demeaning low pay for people who want to raise their growing family (in size and age)

Hate to bring politics into this so I will keep it simple, welcoming more impoverished low skilled immigrants will mean more of these jobs will be beyond normalized as a household-head option, nothing against those who are willing to do them but they need to be told that it is what it is.

People do not seem to understand transactions: there will come a point where there are no more people to tax and the cycle of wealth distribution will restart with the innovative and the hardworking (usually a minority in number) will raise their socioeconomic situation then the majority will retry to fleece them again.

I'm a project manager for a medical device company. We hire people out of the city who have to take two trains and a shuttle to get to work every day. The job consists of placing a label on a tyvek pouch. We pay them $12 an hour. Not much, but enough for them to continue making the trip. A lot of them have no prior experience in a manufacturing facility. We've promoted more than one to become a press operator out of that cell. It's a work ethic thing. These folks show up to work and put in the time every day.
It is a complicated thing to pinpoint as to why that happened, I have young relatives and I keep telling them that jobs require
1-General Skills: Almost every job would require them
2-Technical skills : Skills that are common between sub-fields that fall under the umbrella of a major field of work.
3-Specific skills: that are very needed in that job (think of engineering, doctor, lawyer, accountant, ..etc)

1 is not learned at school while 2 and 3 can be to various degrees.

My naive advice was to tell them learn 1 from your first job, if 2 comes along then it is a great first job, 3 will come from specific training or your first real job.
 
Jul 2016
8,180
USA
#13
I have been long enough in this country to remember that minimum wage jobs were by students (irrespective of background) who wanted to make some money on the side for personal expenses on campus and such.

Over time, it has become a career for new immigrants and middle aged people (including the new immigrants) with people expected to think of such jobs as a demeaning low pay for people who want to raise their growing family (in size and age)

Hate to bring politics into this so I will keep it simple, welcoming more impoverished low skilled immigrants will mean more of these jobs will be beyond normalized as a household-head option, nothing against those who are willing to do them but they need to be told that it is what it is.

People do not seem to understand transactions: there will come a point where there are no more people to tax and the cycle of wealth distribution will restart with the innovative and the hardworking (usually a minority in number) will raise their socioeconomic situation then the majority will retry to fleece them again.
Before minimum wage laws even existed, base pay was simply dictated by skill and demand. For jobs requiring almost no skill, where employers held the power over employees, they could get away with paying them less. At least until the employees smartened up and quit, finding better work. A lot of jobs, especially in the fast food industry, were originally designed for teenagers working their first jobs. Mindless work, little pay, but nobody was (or is) expected to raise a family on such employment, they're so a kid can have pocket change for the summer to party when they're not working. or to help pay for college. Or a new car. Not to pay for an apartment, five kids, and contributing to a 401k or IRA for retirement.

Some companies possess business models where the vast majority of their workforce is minimum wage. Some of the bigger names off the top of my head are Walmart and McDonalds. Neither hire anyone for entry level job with any real skill set or who aren't absolutely desperate for any job and any paycheck. Both have extremely high turnover of employees, they're designed to, nobody is supposed to be in those positions for extended periods. Because their models are built on such, they make it work. Getting "stuck" in such a position for an extended period is the employee's fault. If they're an immigrant, use free hours to learn English. Learn a real skill set. Learn how to type, use Microsoft Office with a cheap laptop computer, using free software instruction available on the internet, and then score a better skilled job as an administrator. Pass a drug test and be willing to get your hands dirty, and you can be making $30-50/hr as a skilled tradesman inside a few years, with the prospect of having your own business inside a decade or so. If they're an American and think they have no options but minimum wage, that is their own problem that they created, and clearly they want society to save them from their own bad choices.
 
Likes: Teslatron
Jan 2019
122
USA
#14
I have been long enough in this country to remember that minimum wage jobs were by students (irrespective of background) who wanted to make some money on the side for personal expenses on campus and such.

Over time, it has become a career for new immigrants and middle aged people (including the new immigrants) with people expected to think of such jobs as a demeaning low pay for people who want to raise their growing family (in size and age)

Hate to bring politics into this so I will keep it simple, welcoming more impoverished low skilled immigrants will mean more of these jobs will be beyond normalized as a household-head option, nothing against those who are willing to do them but they need to be told that it is what it is.

People do not seem to understand transactions: there will come a point where there are no more people to tax and the cycle of wealth distribution will restart with the innovative and the hardworking (usually a minority in number) will raise their socioeconomic situation then the majority will retry to fleece them again.



It is a complicated thing to pinpoint as to why that happened, I have young relatives and I keep telling them that jobs require
1-General Skills: Almost every job would require them
2-Technical skills : Skills that are common between sub-fields that fall under the umbrella of a major field of work.
3-Specific skills: that are very needed in that job (think of engineering, doctor, lawyer, accountant, ..etc)

1 is not learned at school while 2 and 3 can be to various degrees.

My naive advice was to tell them learn 1 from your first job, if 2 comes along then it is a great first job, 3 will come from specific training or your first real job.
I can relate to that list. It took me four to five years out of college before I felt like I had a 'big boy' job.

I couldn't pinpoint the culprit either, but I will say that it would seem more likely to get worse than better from here. I'm about to turn 30 and I'm amazed by how people in my generation seem to have no shame. My parents taught me early on that you're going to have to work in life. A lot of times, you may not be doing what you want to be doing. Things aren't always going to be fair or work out perfectly for you. That's just the way the world works, we work hard to enjoy those good times we have with our family and friends. Nothing will or should be given to you in life,, you had to earn it. They also taught me the importance of maintaining strong credit, not racking up debt, keeping your word. Most importantly, you need to take care of and provide for your family. I feel like those lessons used to be standard when raising children. I'm trying to imprint those values on my two daughters. I do find myself powerless over them though lol, perhaps that is the issue? I suppose recognizing the condition is the first route to rectifying it.

I look at some of the folks my age who are living off of unemployment and still at their parents house. They are almost boastful about it. Talking about how they have no bills or things to do next week. I feel like saying, "Yeah, that's because you're unemployed and no one would loan you a cent if you begged for it.".

That brings me back to the shame part. How can someone get enjoyment out of life when they haven't done anything of value with it? I would be so ashamed of myself to be living like that. There isn't any excuse now a days.

Perhaps I'm being too harsh, but I believe it.
 
Last edited:
Aug 2014
151
New York, USA
#15
To encourage savings all tax deductions on interest (mortgage, student loan, or other debt) should be eliminated (like it is in Canada).
Capping SALT deduction at $10k was a good start, but realistically you should not be encouraging/subsidizing personal debt through tax incentives like these.
- Both SALT and loan interest deductions should be completely eliminated altogether. It creates cyclical bubbles that are detrimental in the long run.
- There should be a Constitutional amendment to place a cap on Federal deficit spending (so that Congress doesn't just keep violating its own law easily by simply raising the debt ceiling limit). Federal government should be permitted to run deficits only 1. During official recessions (over 2 quarters of negative GDP growth) or 2. During national emergencies such as wars officially sanctioned by Congress or natural disasters. There is no reason why the Federal government is running huge trillion dollar deficits during the "good" times.
That brings me back to the shame part. How can someone get enjoyment out of life when they haven't done anything of value with it? I would be so ashamed of myself to be living like that. There isn't any excuse now a days.
That is why we have a proliferation of these "activists". They find meaning and value by embracing various causes and they want *everyone else* to pay for them just like they are paying for their living. They don't know anything else.
 
Last edited:

Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,367
US
#18
Americans already pay into Social Security, although most people will (hopefully) withdraw more than they contribute. Then again, what do you do with all those who aren't employed or not employed and actually paying? Who is covering their share?
 
Jul 2016
8,180
USA
#19
Americans already pay into Social Security, although most people will (hopefully) withdraw more than they contribute. Then again, what do you do with all those who aren't employed or not employed and actually paying? Who is covering their share?
Everyone else.

The 1% can pay for everyone else's retirement! They can live on golden clouds in cities made of chocolate, where everything is free is everyone is happy!

 
#20
I can relate to that list. It took me four to five years out of college before I felt like I had a 'big boy' job.

I couldn't pinpoint the culprit either, but I will say that it would seem more likely to get worse than better from here. I'm about to turn 30 and I'm amazed by how people in my generation seem to have no shame. My parents taught me early on that you're going to have to work in life. A lot of times, you may not be doing what you want to be doing. Things aren't always going to be fair or work out perfectly for you. That's just the way the world works, we work hard to enjoy those good times we have with our family and friends. Nothing will or should be given to you in life,, you had to earn it. They also taught me the importance of maintaining strong credit, not racking up debt, keeping your word. Most importantly, you need to take care of and provide for your family. I feel like those lessons used to be standard when raising children. I'm trying to imprint those values on my two daughters. I do find myself powerless over them though lol, perhaps that is the issue? I suppose recognizing the condition is the first route to rectifying it.

I look at some of the folks my age who are living off of unemployment and still at their parents house. They are almost boastful about it. Talking about how they have no bills or things to do next week. I feel like saying, "Yeah, that's because you're unemployed and no one would loan you a cent if you begged for it.".

That brings me back to the shame part. How can someone get enjoyment out of life when they haven't done anything of value with it? I would be so ashamed of myself to be living like that. There isn't any excuse now a days.

Perhaps I'm being too harsh, but I believe it.
Teens and 20-somethings take their high living standards for granted and believe in more of a work-life balance, so working 40+ hours a week doesn't look appealing at all. I think we are moving towards a more selfish society with the deterioration of the family unit & loss of community spirit too. Having said that, I made a lot of poor financial decisions in my youth & it's only the last couple years I've learnt my lesson & taken steps in the right direction.

I also think Universities don't adequately prepare students for the real world; some students think a degree is the ultimate achievement yet degrees are so devalued nowadays you can't stand out from the crowd to get the ideal dream job & thus have to work a not-so-perfect job. On the other hand, there can only be so many astronauts, CEOs, rockstars e.t.c. and if everyone was super determined with outstanding work-ethic we'd still end up with tons of over-qualified unfulfilled individuals.
 

Similar History Discussions