since when Indo-Aryans started to burning their Dead instead of burying ?

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,095
New Delhi, India
Yes, Indus is a Vedic River, so too are Yamuna and Ganga, though late Vedic. Nadi Sukta itself is late Vedic being in the 10th book. Chambal, Lucknow Gomati, Ghaghra, Ayodhya Sarayu, Gandak, Kosi as completely left out. If Aryans were indigenous Indians, they would have mentioned some of these somewhere or the other.

"The river is mentioned three times in the Rigveda. The banks of the Sarayu are the location of the slaying of two Aryas at the hands of Indra in RV 4.30.18. It is listed together with western tributaries to the Indus: Rasā, Anitabha, Kubha, Krumu, and the Sindhu itself as obstacles crossed by the Maruts in RV 5.53.9. In this verse, Purisini appears as its epithet. At this stage of the earlier Rigveda, it apparently was a river west of the Indus system that corresponds to Iranian Harayu (Avestan acc. Harōiium, Old Persian Haraiva, modern Harē or Harī), the Hari River. It is invoked together with Sindhu and Sarasvati (two of the most prominent Rigvedic rivers) in the late hymn RV 10.64."
Sarayu - Wikipedia

Of course, the article also says that 'there is no mention of Ganga in RigVeda', which is patently wrong.
I would not reply to your intended barbs. They do not affect me and spoil the atmosphere of the forum to make it dirty like New Delhi air.
 
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Jul 2017
510
Sydney
Yes, Indus is a Vedic River, so too are Yamuna and Ganga, though late Vedic. Nadi Sukta itself is late Vedic being in the 10th book. Chambal, Lucknow Gomati, Ghaghra, Ayodhya Sarayu, Gandak, Kosi as completely left out. If Aryans were indigenous Indians, they would have mentioned some of these somewhere or the other.

"The river is mentioned three times in the Rigveda. The banks of the Sarayu are the location of the slaying of two Aryas at the hands of Indra in RV 4.30.18. It is listed together with western tributaries to the Indus: Rasā, Anitabha, Kubha, Krumu, and the Sindhu itself as obstacles crossed by the Maruts in RV 5.53.9. In this verse, Purisini appears as its epithet. At this stage of the earlier Rigveda, it apparently was a river west of the Indus system that corresponds to Iranian Harayu (Avestan acc. Harōiium, Old Persian Haraiva, modern Harē or Harī), the Hari River. It is invoked together with Sindhu and Sarasvati (two of the most prominent Rigvedic rivers) in the late hymn RV 10.64."
Sarayu - Wikipedia

Of course, the article also says that 'there is no mention of Ganga in RigVeda', which is patently wrong.
I would not reply to your intended barbs. They do not affect me and spoil the atmosphere of the forum to make it dirty like New Delhi air.
I somehow am very suspicious of Mandala 10 being a newer one. Highly doubtful theory that Mandala 10 is a rather late composition

The Nadistuti sukta itself has some archaic Sanskrit features, which I shall enumerate later
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,095
New Delhi, India
Now, I was after the unknown rivers in Nadistuti Sukta. First, Marudvridha. I would request @Aatreya to parse the word. Is it Marut + vridha? And what may be the meaning of this word? The river is mentioned to be between Chenab (Asikni) and Jhelum (Vitasta). I find two rivulets in the region - 1. Nala Bhandar (from Malot) and 2. Randeam Kas (from Bhimbar). It is possible that one of these (or both after the confluence) were known as Marudvridha. The two stream later merge near Malikpur in Pakistan and then join Chenab. They are the bigger streams in that area. These rivulets and those in Saraswati region have lost their flow because of the extensive canal system built by the British and later by Governments of India and Pakistan. They generally peter out.

That done, let me go after the other unknown rivers beyond Indus - Trstama, Susartu, Rasa (along with Gomati and Krumu), Mehatnu, Gauri and Kusava.

Marudvridha.png
 
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Aupmanyav

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Jun 2014
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New Delhi, India
First question: What could have been the RigVedic name of Tochi river (also called Gambila River) which finally joins Kurram (which is close of Krumu of RigVeda)?
 
Nov 2014
464
India
The more evidence I come across, less do I endorse AMT or AIT.
I wouldn't even begin to explain the following three unless I am agenda driven, say a Christian or a Marxist.

1) The Saraswati was described as the largest of the rivers that the Vedic people knew. Saraswati is listed in order from east to west, i.e., Ganga, Yamuna, Saraswati, Sutlej and Ravi. Saraswati dried up by about 1800 BC. Aryans came to India in about 1500 BC. To say that the Vedic people picked up the past grandeur of the then dry river Saraswati from the memory of the locals is just from La-La-land.

2) Presence of Mitani at around present-day Syria, who had Indo-Aryan Gods about 1800 BC. While they were separated from geographic space of India by Indo-Iranians. To explain that Indo-Aryans and Indo-Iranians split-up in central Asia and the Indo-Aryans split into two wings, the Mitani and the one heading towards Indo-Saraswati plains, flanking the Indo-Iranians on the east and the west. This can only be agenda driven explanation.

3) Presence of a significant number of Indo-Aryan words in the Finnish language. Note: not Indo-Iranian or Indo-Europian group, but Indo-Aryan ones. Just pick up a world map and look at Finland and try to explain this. Independent Indo-Aryan influence, independent of Indo-Iranian one in Finland and Syria.

So, after the Indo-Aryan and Indo-Iranian split happened, the Indo-Aryans independently influenced Finnish people at the extream north, located to the north of Indo-Europian speaking Slavic people, independent of the Slavic and Indo-Iranian ones. some of them moved to Syria, flanking the Indo-Iranians on the west and most of them moved into India, to the east of Indo-Iranians.

When one puts all of the above three points, both AMT and AIT looks weird.
 
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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,095
New Delhi, India
The more evidence I come across, less do I endorse AMT or AIT.
1) The Saraswati was described as the largest of the rivers that the Vedic people knew. Saraswati is listed in order from east to west, i.e., Ganga, Yamuna, Saraswati, Sutlej and Ravi. Saraswati dried up by about 1800 BC. Aryans came to India in about 1500 BC. To say that the Vedic people picked up the past grandeur of the then dry river Saraswati from the memory of the locals is just from La-La-land.
2) Presence of Mitani at around present-day Syria, who had Indo-Aryan Gods about 1800 BC. While they were separated from geographic space of India by Indo-Iranians. To explain that Indo-Aryans and Indo-Iranians split-up in central Asia and the Indo-Aryans split into two wings, the Mitani and the one heading towards Indo-Saraswati plains, flanking the Indo-Iranians on the east and the west. This can only be agenda driven explanation.
3) Presence of a significant number of Indo-Aryan words in the Finnish language. Note: not Indo-Iranian or Indo-Europian group, but Indo-Aryan ones. Just pick up a world map and look at Finland and try to explain this. Independent Indo-Aryan influence, independent of Indo-Iranian one in Finland and Syria.
Your choice, friend. Kindly note that I am neither a Christian evangelist nor a Marxist. I am a very nationalist, BJP-voting, orthodox Hindu believing in very strict Advaita and belonging to a (Kashmiri) brahmin family. My grandfather was a historian and archaeologist who wrote many books (a partial list can be seen in Wikipedia Bishweshwar Nath Reu - Wikipedia, which I am too lazy to update). Apart from them, he wrote two books on RigVeda, an 8,000 Sanskrit verse Smriti (Vishweshwara Smriti) and translated two books of Lokmanya Tilak, 'Arctic Home in Vedas' and 'Orion or Researches into Antiquity of Vedas' into Hindi. I picked up my interest in history from him, though it has not been my profession.

1. Saraswati cannot dry up. Himalayas would always send water down its slope. Only that its course may have changed due to geotectonic reasons.
2. Mittani remained close to the Caspian sea coast to reach their area in Iraq/Syria. They ruled over people who were not Aryans around 1,400 BCE. Mittani did not have much to do with Iranians. Iran did not get its mythology from Mittani but from Zoroastrians. The first emperor who clearly was a Zoroastrian was Darius the Great (c. 550–486 BCE). IE people went in all directions, West to Europe, North to Russia and reached Germany from that side, and they came to India from Herat side.
3. IE influence in Germany and Scandinavia reached via Russia - Samara, Afanasevo, Fatyanovo, Abashevo, Potapovka via Corded Ware culture. You can find details for all these places/cultures in Wikipedia.
 
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Jul 2017
510
Sydney
Your choice, friend. Kindly note that I am neither a Christian evangelist nor a Marxist. I am a very nationalist, BJP-voting, orthodox Hindu believing in very strict Advaita and belonging to a (Kashmiri) brahmin family. My grandfather was a historian and archaeologist who wrote many books (a partial list can be seen in Wikipedia Bishweshwar Nath Reu - Wikipedia, which I am too lazy to update). Apart from them, he wrote two books on RigVeda, an 8,000 Sanskrit verse Smriti (Vishweshwara Smriti) and translated two books of Lokmanya Tilak, 'Arctic Home in Vedas' and 'Orion or Researches into Antiquity of Vedas' into Hindi. I picked up my interest in history from him, though it has not been my profession.

1. Saraswati cannot dry up. Himalayas would always send water down its slope.
3. IE influence in Germany and Scandinavia reached via Russia - Samara, Afanasevo, Fatyanovo, Abashevo, Potapovka via Corded Ware culture. You can find details for all these places/cultures in Wikipedia.
@prashanth has made a great observation that our deal with Latvians and Finns is completely different to the vector you are talking about when you refer to Yamnaya reaching Germany via Russia

Just to throw some light on this, Latvians and Finns have both got a lot of Ugric ancestry and it appears from linguistic, ancestral and archeological angles that Indo-Aryans have influenced them via a different locus or trajectory, which is not related to the Yamnaya one

@Aupmanyav - Your grandfather seems to have been a learned man :)

I wish I could speak to him as I've a feeling he could answer some of my questions around the Raja Lav (post Gonanda dynasty) of Kashmir history
 
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