since when Indo-Aryans started to burning their Dead instead of burying ?

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,355
Australia
#21
This is how his argument works: First consider a premise that Aryans came from Central Asia in 1500 BCE. Then explain away everything saying that the Aryans only came into India in 1500 BCE. Notice how the premise already became an evidence later. This is how AMT has flourished.

On the other hand, the OIT Saraswati, the linguistic comparison of Vedic, Mitanni and Avestan, etc.. Then we would assess the possible date of Aryan migration from India.

No amount of reasoning works with these folks.
This is how his argument works: First consider a premise that Aryans came from India. Then try to explain away badly everything that says that the Aryans came into India from central Asia. Notice how the premise already became an evidence later. This is how OOI has flourished.

On the other hand, the AMT camp does start with a premise that AryAs migrated out of central Asia into India It starts with a whole range of other information from different information sources and known archaeological evidences that lead to the AMT..

No amount of reasoning works with these folks.
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,355
Australia
#22
Vedas were written in Sapta Sindhu(land of the 7 rivers) that comprises North-West India, Eastern Pakistan and parts of Eastern Afghanistan. There is no central Asian memory in Vedas, there is no mention of any region beyond Gandhara. Although Iranic tribes have always inhabited Eastern Iran, Afghanistan and Central Asia and they even knew about Sapta Sindhu as Hapta Hindu.
Perhaps they where WRITTEN there . A few posters here might explain how, in the 'oral phase' they see many indications of a moving population. Views differ on what rivers are being mentioned.

Considering the Vedic writers did not know about Central Asia and considering that the 'Iranic tribes' inhabited Central Asia and knew about 'Hapta Hindu' doesnt suggest any validity for OIT .
 

Devdas

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
4,716
India
#23
Perhaps they where WRITTEN there . A few posters here might explain how, in the 'oral phase' they see many indications of a moving population. Views differ on what rivers are being mentioned.

Considering the Vedic writers did not know about Central Asia and considering that the 'Iranic tribes' inhabited Central Asia and knew about 'Hapta Hindu' doesnt suggest any validity for OIT .
I don't know if there was some OIT but Aryan invasion theory is not true. Some people claim there are proof of Aryan invasion in Vedas which is nothing sort of a fraud because Vedas don't mention such thing, Rigveda mentions about numerous rivers like Hari Rud in Afghanistan to Ganges-Yamuna in central Indo-Gangetic plains and we can easily tell the geography. second thing is claiming Dasyus as Dravidians that's also a fake claim. Dasyus (Old Persian/Avestan: Dahyu) were an Iranic tribe and find mention the battle of the ten kings in Rigveda fought on the banks of Ravi River in Punjab.
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,667
New Delhi, India
#24
Perhaps they where written there . A few posters here might explain how, in the 'oral phase' they see many indications of a moving population.
Few of the old hymns remain and much is lost. Tradition says that there were many more hymns. We have only two recessions of RigVeda. Then the older hymns were unintelligible to later people. The locale where the old hymns were written was much different from Sapta-Sindhu, the seasons were different. There were only five seasons in the original Aryan home. The rains, when they were in Central Asia did not happen in July but around September/October. That finds a mention in RigVeda. Many of these hymns were written with new understandable words. There is a hymn in RigVeda saying this. That is the meaning of 'Sanhita' - edition, a new compilation. That is why every thing is not clearly mentioned.
Rigveda mentions about numerous rivers like Hari Rud in Afghanistan to Ganges-Yamuna in central Indo-Gangetic plains and we can easily tell the geography. second thing is claiming Dasyus as Dravidians that's also a fake claim. Dasyus (Old Persian/Avestan: Dahyu) were an Iranic tribe and find mention the battle of the ten kings in Rigveda fought on the banks of Ravi River in Punjab.
There, Haroyu, Harahvaiti, etc.. Ganga and Yamuna have brief mentions. As for dasas and dasyus, I do not want to repet what I have said many a times in the forum - They were demons of darkness who were killed every year by Indra (or other Gods, Agni, Ahwins, Soma, Vishnu, etc.) afte which the sun could appear and the rivers flowed. That happened on the dy of vernal equinox and that was the beginning of the Aryan New Year and their ritual cycle. Battle of Ten Kings came much later.
Edit: Artacana was the capital of Aria. Alexander extablished a city around Herat and called it Alexendria Ariana. Artacoana - Wikipedia
 
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Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,544
USA
#25
Perhaps they where WRITTEN there . A few posters here might explain how, in the 'oral phase' they see many indications of a moving population. Views differ on what rivers are being mentioned.

Considering the Vedic writers did not know about Central Asia and considering that the 'Iranic tribes' inhabited Central Asia and knew about 'Hapta Hindu' doesnt suggest any validity for OIT .
There is no doubt about the rivers mentioned in Rig Veda. These are not views but facts. The hymns were orally transmitted in case you do not know.
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,355
Australia
#26
I don't know if there was some OIT but Aryan invasion theory is not true. Some people claim there are proof of Aryan invasion in Vedas which is nothing sort of a fraud because Vedas don't mention such thing, Rigveda mentions about numerous rivers like Hari Rud in Afghanistan to Ganges-Yamuna in central Indo-Gangetic plains and we can easily tell the geography. second thing is claiming Dasyus as Dravidians that's also a fake claim. Dasyus (Old Persian/Avestan: Dahyu) were an Iranic tribe and find mention the battle of the ten kings in Rigveda fought on the banks of Ravi River in Punjab.


Is this going to be , yet another , ' tangential Indian discussion' ?
 

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
#28
The identifications of the rivers in the Rig Vedaz are not as fact based as often claimed. The Rig Vedas themselves are short, and don't give a lot of detaildd descriptions, compared to a longer narrative structure like Homer. The possibility remains that old names were reapplied to nee locations, or that the names were more generic rather than specific place names. The US is full of places that were named after places in the Old World. And names that were originally just a generic name because a specific name after time. The name of the city of Detroit originally just meant "strait" in French. And Medina originally meant "city" in Arabic. It is not entirely certain from the Rig Vedas that specific places are meant. It is possible, but it is interesting to note that cities are seldom referred to by name in the Rig Vedas.

As for cremation practices, cremation is a common method. The ancient Romans practiced both cremation and as the catacombs of Rome shows, burial as well. I don't see the Rig Vedas providing specific details of cremation, similar to the details we have for Viking ship burials and accounts from historic sources from know writers, but I could be mistaken.and perhaps there are some Given the popularity of cremation among many cultures, the mere fact of it does not tell us a lot by itself.

Now I want to stress that does not mean the identifications of the Rig Vedas with modern rivers and geographical features are wrong, just that caution needs to be applied. The real relationships like more complex than we might think. I am curious what fuel was used for cremations by the Ayrans, since the areas they lived in were not heavily forrested.
 
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Likes: Kadi
Jul 2017
510
Sydney
#29
As for cremation practices, cremation is a common method. The ancient Romans practiced both cremation and as the catacombs of Rome shows, burial as well. I don't see the Rig Vedas providing specific details of cremation, similar to the details we have for Viking ship burials and accounts from historic sources from know writers, but I could be mistaken.and perhaps there are some Given the popularity of cremation among many cultures, the mere fact of it does not tell us a lot by itself.

Now I want to stress that does not mean the identifications of the Rig Vedas with modern rivers and geographical features are wrong, just that caution needs to be applied. The real relationships like more complex than we might think. I am curious what fuel was used for cremations by the Ayrans, since the areas they lived in were not heavily forrested.
Indeed, it is a historically attested method that was quite widespread. I just read of 4,000 year old cremation records from England and 11,000 year old records from Alaska plus there are possible findings from south east Asia of an even older date aside from the 40,000 year old evidence from Australia

Coming to the fuel used by Aryans, it was wood mostly as the north west India and Pakistan area was heavily forested in the past; the last 100 years or so have witnessed massive deforestation for agricultural purposes in the region
 
Jul 2017
510
Sydney
#30
I am curious what fuel was used for cremations by the Ayrans, since the areas they lived in were not heavily forrested.
If we take the Rigveda in totality, it has various parts such as the Samhita, the Brahmanas (ancient commentaries) and Aranyakas (the forest books)

The Rigveda being accompanied by forest books suggests the Aryans were well aware and located close to a forested area that they visited quite often (maybe daily)

I thought this angle might help but if there is a different basis for your opinion, please let me know