Slavic Origins

Mar 2010
325
Canada
I'm doing some research, and am new to this forum, but I would like to know if anyone has any real facts they can site on the origins of Slavic culture and language.

The current debate is on the land claim. Supposedly, the roots are somewhere near the Polish/Ukrainian border and on parts of current Ukraine that had once been considered Polish land. So, you can see where all the fuss is coming from.

I'm curious to know what everyone thinks, or maybe what they think they know, and where they got the information from.

I personally feel that Poland has a longer history than Ukraine, and therefore link it to that country...

Can anyone further share the origin history of both these countries with me?
Comments???
 

Belloc

Ad Honorem
Mar 2010
5,418
USA
Sure I can share with you some things about the early history of the Slavs. Although pardon me I'm a little worn out atm. So maybe tomorrow at the soonest.
 
Mar 2010
325
Canada
Sure I can share with you some things about the early history of the Slavs. Although pardon me I'm a little worn out atm. So maybe tomorrow at the soonest.
Sure that would be great. I am sure I'll learn a few things that will surprise me along the way! :)
 
Mar 2010
305
The Continent everyone hates
I'm doing some research, and am new to this forum, but I would like to know if anyone has any real facts they can site on the origins of Slavic culture and language.

I suspect this is not a request for academic material or otherwise I would forward some PDFs from the Eastern Slavonic Database.
The current debate is on the land claim. Supposedly, the roots are somewhere near the Polish/Ukrainian border and on parts of current Ukraine that had once been considered Polish land. So, you can see where all the fuss is coming from.
There is no debate on land claim. Unless Poland wants to start an armed conflict over land which never really belonged to them (Imperialism). Poland and Lithuania had bretrayed their trading partner Red Ruthenia (Halych-Volhynia) and annexed those territories.

I'm curious to know what everyone thinks, or maybe what they think they know, and where they got the information from.

I personally feel that Poland has a longer history than Ukraine, and therefore link it to that country...

Can anyone further share the origin history of both these countries with me?
Comments???
Problem is that you are comparing a historical entity (Poland has long been argued Europe's oldest nation) to a twenieth century nation state. On that same notion, you can argue that Poland has a longer history than Germany, because there was no German state until 1871 and thus Poland has legitimate claim to everything east of the Elbe. :D
 
Mar 2010
325
Canada
I suspect this is not a request for academic material or otherwise I would forward some PDFs from the Eastern Slavonic Database.
There is no debate on land claim. Unless Poland wants to start an armed conflict over land which never really belonged to them (Imperialism). Poland and Lithuania had bretrayed their trading partner Red Ruthenia (Halych-Volhynia) and annexed those territories.

Problem is that you are comparing a historical entity (Poland has long been argued Europe's oldest nation) to a twenieth century nation state. On that same notion, you can argue that Poland has a longer history than Germany, because there was no German state until 1871 and thus Poland has legitimate claim to everything east of the Elbe. :D
Interesting.
Ok, so forget comparing historical entity... but back to the question:
Slavic roots - do we tie them to an ethnic group?

No, this isn't necessarily a request for academic material, although I'm always up for a good read if you can provide!

I have to agree with you. I think there is a debate on land. Just recently, there was an exhibit at the Royal Ontario Museum about the ancient Ukrainian civilization, making claims that the origin of slavs, and basically, of humanity, has been linked to present day Ukraine. Some Ukrainians I've spoken to are now claiming that the Poles have therefore stolen their history, culture, etc...

I'd therefore like to know more about these claims, and about Slavic origins, and where Ukraine stands. What are the facts here?
 

sturm

Ad Honorem
Jul 2009
8,893
Bulgaria
About the slavic roots, i have once seen info that slavs and germanic tribes were living together, as written by Tacitus:
"Indeed, some of them do not wear even a shirt or a cloak, but gathering their trews up as far as to their private parts they enter into battle with their opponents. And both the two peoples have also the same language, an utterly barbarous tongue. Nay further, they do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or blond, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type, but they are all slightly ruddy in color."

About the land they occupied. You could have seen slavs from the Carpathian mountains South, to the Baltic Sea north, and from river Dneiper east to Danube river to the west, some moved into todays Eastern Germany.
What you have to know, is that the slavs did not lived into one united country. Slavic people lived separately into different tribes, and rarely they united, when they were facing common enemy (and even that did not happened aways).
About how we know which territories they settled? Easy actually, slavics were not nomads, they lived into one area and they lived by farming, so they left us many items which archeologists are finding to this day.
 

Zeno

Ad Honoris
Jan 2010
13,691
♪♬ ♫♪♩
What about the "Scythian Farmers", they are supposedly the Slavs or proto Slavs.

As yet, there is no evidence to discredit Herodotus' description of the country of the Scythians, Ukraine. Probably, we may identify the Scythian-Farmers with the Chernoles culture and the Neuri with the Milograd-culture, which in turn can be identified with the ancestors of the Slavs and Balts. The strange story about the Man-eaters received some confirmation with the excavation of human remains that were gnawed at by human jaws; these excavations were along the river Sula, southeast of Kiev. The Argippaeans are sometimes identified with the ancestors of the Calmucs; the Issedones may be identical to the Wu-sun who (according to Chinese texts) lived on the shore of Lake Balchash. Later, they became known as the Yuezhi nomads, and founded the Kushan Empire in the Punjab.
http://www.livius.org/he-hg/herodotus/logos4_10.html
The Scythian-Farmers seem to be identical with the archaeological culture known as Chernoles, which has been identified with the Iron Age Slavs.
http://www.livius.org/sao-sd/scythians/scythians.html
 

beorna

Ad Honoris
Jan 2010
17,473
-
I think with the Scythian farmers you are in the right region, allthough not right in time. I would like to call Slavs those of the Kiew culture as the first slavs, but a great step of their ethnogenesis was done during hunnic and awarian times at the roman borders. So perhaps just the roman boarders made them becoming slavs wich had a feedback towards more northern regions.
The descendence from the Lusatian culture is surely not given.
 
Mar 2010
325
Canada
About the slavic roots, i have once seen info that slavs and germanic tribes were living together, as written by Tacitus:
"Indeed, some of them do not wear even a shirt or a cloak, but gathering their trews up as far as to their private parts they enter into battle with their opponents. And both the two peoples have also the same language, an utterly barbarous tongue. Nay further, they do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or blond, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type, but they are all slightly ruddy in color."

About the land they occupied. You could have seen slavs from the Carpathian mountains South, to the Baltic Sea north, and from river Dneiper east to Danube river to the west, some moved into todays Eastern Germany.
What you have to know, is that the slavs did not lived into one united country. Slavic people lived separately into different tribes, and rarely they united, when they were facing common enemy (and even that did not happened aways).
About how we know which territories they settled? Easy actually, slavics were not nomads, they lived into one area and they lived by farming, so they left us many items which archeologists are finding to this day.
So you're saying that there is no area/region of origin? What would you say then, to the Ukraine exhibit I described above? I will try to find it online and post it if its still ongoing.

In all honesty, I don't know much about this topic, but I want to know more about Slavic origin, and not to prove anyone right or wrong, but because I think there are so many different viewpoints, which one is true if any?
 
Mar 2010
305
The Continent everyone hates
More accurate to state that Slav are heterogeneous. Slavic culture might descend from Scythian but most Slav do not.
Much like most of us speak English when we possess little English (Angles) ourselves. ;)


Contrary to what you might think, the Russians are nowhere near the top of the list. Moscow was a backwater in Old Rus. Considering the lack of infrastructure back then, Moscow under Rus was more the equivalent of Anchorage (Alaska) than Chicago, in terms of population and relative distance to Kiev.

Russians (North East Inhabitants of Kievy Rus Empire) back then (1200>) had already intermarried into Finnic Tribes. Never mind in subsequent centuries, with the rise of Moscow / Russian Empire, the Russians conquered the Tatar Khanates and assimilated and intermarried into those peoples.

Ironically, these are the same people who insist that they are the legitimate heirs of Old Rus and are more Slavic than everyone else(!).

There is a reason Napoleon said: "Scratch Russian and find Tatar" and never said anything disparagingly about the Poles (Napoleon's Allies) or the Carpathian Rusyns
 
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