So many Italian Explorers and ?

Chlodio

Ad Honorem
Aug 2016
3,933
Dispargum
#11
Ships that plied the Mediterranean in the 15th century were built to very different designs than ships that sailed the Atlantic. For one thing, Mediterranean ships still used oars for propulsion while Atlantic ships used sails exclusively. While individuals like Columbus learned sailing ships, he was probably a rare exception. Most Italian sailors probably were still more familiar oar ships.
 
Nov 2009
3,886
Outer world
#12
Most proofs and historians point towards him being Italian, notably Genoese:
- Contemporary people (geographers, explorers, etc) and people living in the following decades from different areas (from Portugal to the Ottoman Empire) mention him as from Genoa
- His genealogical tree has been traced back to Genoa
- Colombo himself declared himself Genoese in various documents and in his testament
- He was not the first Genoese working for an Iberian monarch (Lancelotto Malocello, Cadamosto, Usodimare) or exploring the Atlantic (Vivaldi brothers).
By contrast, most supporters of the Spanish origins support that thesis because he was able to speak Catalan very well, which all in all is a rather weak argument.
 
Jul 2018
292
London
#13
Because sources didn´t say he was the Chinese characterist...nobody wrote he was a "mongol" as it would have been written in 15th Century...
And of course... he was not From Castilla.. but he could be from other places in Spain as Catalonia, Majorca etc or from Portugal... Why do you know he was not from Spain or from Portugal?
Have you got evidences?
In the state archive, in Genoa, we have the documents of his baptism and some other, property related, documents with his name ...
 

Naima

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
2,321
Venice
#15
Ships that plied the Mediterranean in the 15th century were built to very different designs than ships that sailed the Atlantic. For one thing, Mediterranean ships still used oars for propulsion while Atlantic ships used sails exclusively. While individuals like Columbus learned sailing ships, he was probably a rare exception. Most Italian sailors probably were still more familiar oar ships.
Thats not historical. Most of the Captains of ships for the Atlantic and exploring missions were Italian. They were assumed couse of their expertize in seafaring and because other nations lacked proper abilities.
 

Naima

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
2,321
Venice
#16
Most proofs and historians point towards him being Italian, notably Genoese:
- Contemporary people (geographers, explorers, etc) and people living in the following decades from different areas (from Portugal to the Ottoman Empire) mention him as from Genoa
- His genealogical tree has been traced back to Genoa
- Colombo himself declared himself Genoese in various documents and in his testament
- He was not the first Genoese working for an Iberian monarch (Lancelotto Malocello, Cadamosto, Usodimare) or exploring the Atlantic (Vivaldi brothers).
By contrast, most supporters of the Spanish origins support that thesis because he was able to speak Catalan very well, which all in all is a rather weak argument.
Also because Catalan is very similar to Italian.
 

Frank81

Ad Honorem
Feb 2010
5,023
Canary Islands-Spain
#17
Ships that plied the Mediterranean in the 15th century were built to very different designs than ships that sailed the Atlantic. For one thing, Mediterranean ships still used oars for propulsion while Atlantic ships used sails exclusively. While individuals like Columbus learned sailing ships, he was probably a rare exception. Most Italian sailors probably were still more familiar oar ships.
The Italian republics had round ships as well

Naples in the Tavola Strozzi, 1472



Genoa, 1481



I don't talk just about painting, but the evidence is extensive in shipbuilding and companies archives.

However, their building was not as as robust as those from Atlantic Iberia, which had an equilibrium between northern and southern shipbuilding. They also had knowledge and crews.

I talk before about political troubles of such expansion, even though, commercial republics were not particularly bolt explorers. If the profit wasn't guaranteed, they didn't invest. This is true as well for the Netherlands in the 17th century, of very poor exploring record.
 

Chlodio

Ad Honorem
Aug 2016
3,933
Dispargum
#18
Thats not historical. Most of the Captains of ships for the Atlantic and exploring missions were Italian. They were assumed couse of their expertize in seafaring and because other nations lacked proper abilities.

Captains yes, but I'm also refering to crews, ships, governments, and other sponsors. There's probably a reason all of these Italian captains sailed for Portugal and other Atlantic powers - because the Italians didn't have the right ships, the experienced crews, the familiarity with long distance voyages, etc for Atlantic exploration. Some of those Italian captains, like Columbus, spent years working in the Atlantic before they became famous explorers. At that point, their experience wasn't uniquely Italian anymore. Italy provided good raw material for an Atlantic explorer, but it had to combined with experience that was unique to the Atlantic.



No argument the Italians were expericence merchants and traders. Some aspects of seafaring could be learned in the Mediterranean such as how to manage large crews of sailors and basic navigation. But other aspects of sailing were unique to the Atlantic, such as weather patterns, long distances, advanced navigation, etc. (You can't get very lost in the Mediterranean - sooner or later you will find land, but that's not true in the Atlantic.)
 
Last edited:

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,344
Spain
#19
Most proofs and historians point towards him being Italian, notably Genoese:
- Contemporary people (geographers, explorers, etc) and people living in the following decades from different areas (from Portugal to the Ottoman Empire) mention him as from Genoa
- His genealogical tree has been traced back to Genoa
- Colombo himself declared himself Genoese in various documents and in his testament
- He was not the first Genoese working for an Iberian monarch (Lancelotto Malocello, Cadamosto, Usodimare) or exploring the Atlantic (Vivaldi brothers).
By contrast, most supporters of the Spanish origins support that thesis because he was able to speak Catalan very well, which all in all is a rather weak argument.
- Contemporany people never said he was an italian. Simply that he was a foreigner in Castille.. people spoke with him... but being foreigner in Castille didn´t mean he was not Spanish, simply not Castilian.
Colon always hid his origins... not even his wife, the portuguese Beatriz Enríquez knew where were his husband from. The word Genoa didn´t appear not even one time in the process his wife did about his husband´s origin.. and his brother in Law, the Portuguese Pedro de Arana said "that It says he is from Genoa but I don´t know where is he from"
His ow son in his book sometime he said his father was from Genoa.. and other time he says he doesn´t know...
In any Official Records (and the OR still exist.. not even in one he is named Columbus... not even one...) he is named Colón, Colomb, Colom, Colomo but never.. not even one: Colombus or Colombo..
His own son.. yes the same that sometimes said his father from Genoa and sometimes not... the same son wrote his Father´s surname was not Colombo but Colón and Colon is his original surname... not Colombo..or Columbus...

Likely Colón was Spanish... or from Catalonia or from Majorca and likely he was a privateer fought Catholic Monarchs during the Castillian Civil War...and he wanted to hide his origin...or maybe he was a Spanish Jew (Sefarad) born in Genoa.. but he was not an Italian at all..
Strange Italian wrote to the Genoese bankers in Spanish language!!! not in italian...a Spanish language he likely learnt in Portugal (Menéndez Pidal said).

The idea to say he was from Italy, appeared around 1880 and emerged during the 4th Centennial... The just formed Kingdom of Italy (from 1861 in the best of case... from 1871 if we add Rome) and the Italian inmigrants in USA that formed and still they are a lobby...used the Colón, Colomo, Colomb as a propagandist apology about the discovery of America as a Italian "work"... Italy played not role in the discovery of America.. it was a Spanish undertaking...not italian money, or crew or captains... in the discovery...

Personally I don´t know if he was born in Genoa as a Spanish Jew (Colon is not an italian surname) or he was Spanish... likely from Majorca...but to say he was an italian it is because you know his origin... and it is not clear...
 
Nov 2009
3,886
Outer world
#20
- Contemporany people never said he was an italian. Simply that he was a foreigner in Castille.. people spoke with him... but being foreigner in Castille didn´t mean he was not Spanish, simply not Castilian.
Colon always hid his origins... not even his wife, the portuguese Beatriz Enríquez knew where were his husband from. The word Genoa didn´t appear not even one time in the process his wife did about his husband´s origin.. and his brother in Law, the Portuguese Pedro de Arana said "that It says he is from Genoa but I don´t know where is he from"
His ow son in his book sometime he said his father was from Genoa.. and other time he says he doesn´t know...
In any Official Records (and the OR still exist.. not even in one he is named Columbus... not even one...) he is named Colón, Colomb, Colom, Colomo but never.. not even one: Colombus or Colombo..
His own son.. yes the same that sometimes said his father from Genoa and sometimes not... the same son wrote his Father´s surname was not Colombo but Colón and Colon is his original surname... not Colombo..or Columbus...

Likely Colón was Spanish... or from Catalonia or from Majorca and likely he was a privateer fought Catholic Monarchs during the Castillian Civil War...and he wanted to hide his origin...or maybe he was a Spanish Jew (Sefarad) born in Genoa.. but he was not an Italian at all..
Strange Italian wrote to the Genoese bankers in Spanish language!!! not in italian...a Spanish language he likely learnt in Portugal (Menéndez Pidal said).

The idea to say he was from Italy, appeared around 1880 and emerged during the 4th Centennial... The just formed Kingdom of Italy (from 1861 in the best of case... from 1871 if we add Rome) and the Italian inmigrants in USA that formed and still they are a lobby...used the Colón, Colomo, Colomb as a propagandist apology about the discovery of America as a Italian "work"... Italy played not role in the discovery of America.. it was a Spanish undertaking...not italian money, or crew or captains... in the discovery...

Personally I don´t know if he was born in Genoa as a Spanish Jew (Colon is not an italian surname) or he was Spanish... likely from Majorca...but to say he was an italian it is because you know his origin... and it is not clear...
There are notarial documents attesting the presence of his family back to seven generation in Genoa's archives and the fact that that he was from Genoa was already attested by Genoa's doge in 1509 or by Guicciardini in 1538 or Torquato Tasso in 1581, just to name three.
Even Portuguese people like Garcia de Resende o Damiao de Gois state that he was from Genoa, as did Piri Reis in 1513 from the Ottoman Empire.
Let alone the fact that Colombo's family was proven to live in Genoa for seven generations (unless somehow some evil Italian forged those documents to the point of fooling nowadays historians) and it is funny that "Colombo" does not exist as a surname when it is actually a real Genoese family.
In his own testament he affirmed to be from Genoa as he said when he was 19 and again 27 (all documents visible in Genoa's archives).
Basically the thesis that he was Catalan (not even Castilian) comes from... the fact that he spoke very well Catalan and later Spanish, wow. What an impossible, unachievable feat to realise for someone whose native language was an Italic language, amazing for real.
The idea that he was Italian was always there because he was born in Genoa from a Genoese family and he described himself as such in his testament just before dying in the last stage of his life when he was deeply devoted and religious, so unlikely to mask his own origins.
 

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