So many Italian Explorers and ?

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
26,192
Italy, Lago Maggiore
#31
He was from Zena!

He was Italian and spoke Italian.

He was Italian like the citizens of Italian Swiss. They are Italian [and they do defend their Italian identity in the Swiss Confederation!], but they don't live in Italy. Regarding the language he spoke an Italian language [what we call today "Italian" comes from Tuscany ... you know Dante, Petrarch, Boccaccio ... passing through the elaboration in Lombardia ... Manzoni reminded us this ...], not proper "Italian". He was from "Zena"! [A note: don't write "Sena" even if it sounds plausible ... the word for Genova in local language is Zena].
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,344
Spain
#32
He was Italian and spoke Italian.
And you know because he spoke with you...

to be honest... have you any evidence he wrote in Italian language?

What we know (facts.. facts and not even one lucubration):

1st: He was not from Castile (Fray Juan Pérez, the first friar told to him in La Rábida wrote in 1491 "despusición de otra tierra o reino ageno a su lengua" ( for his speech he was from another land or kingdom different to its language)

2nd: He wrote in Spanish (and only/mainly Spanish... save few lines in bad Latin and Greek)...he never wrote in Italian... His personal notes and his diary are written in Spanish as the letters he wrote to Genoan bankers and Pope)

3rd: He learned Spanish before travelling to Spain....and likely Spanish was the only language he had enough proficiencies to write). And why do we know he wrote in Spanish before arriving?
Easy... through a Personal note he wrote in a book in Portugal in 1481... that note was written by Colón´s hands. He wrote "esta en la coenta de la criaçion del mondo segondo los judíos" (this is how the world was created according to the Jews)

So We know that Colón used Spanish (and only Spanish) for his personal notes and addendums...but of course it doesn´t means he was a Spanish... many people only were able to write in Latin and not in English or German or Bohemian...Colón only used Spanish... why? Another mystery...because he never wrote in Italian.. he never wrote in Portuguese...

It is very funny to see "an italian" in Portugal... Writing his personal remarks in Spanish.... isn´t it? And we are talking year 1481... that it means.. he could speak/write in Spanish before 1481...

Where, how, why... did he learn? He likely learned Spanish in Portugal... in fact, till 19th Century, the Spanish /castillian was the second language in Portugal... so.. it is possible he learned there... but it is not sure...
and I like to speak about facts.

4th: There are "lusism" and "catalanism" in the Spanish language Colón wrote/spoke...but not "italianism"

5th: Colón always used Spanish language in his personal letters written to Italians (to people from Genoa).. never italian.. not even a line.. and yes.. it s a fact.
When he wrote to the City of Genoa... he wrote in Spanish...all the letter (al Oficio de San Giorgi, 2 de abril de 1502... it is funny.. his "City" and not even the date is in Italian)... 2 de abril de 1502... 2 aprile 1502... not even he wrote "Aprile"...a letter sent to "his city"... 100% in Spanish.
The letter he wrote to Nicolo Oderigo (Two letters, both in Spanish, not even a word in italian). in one he wrote "En Sevilla" (not even he wrote "a Siviglia")...the many letters he wrote to the Father Gorricio de Novara (again in Spanish...not even a word in Italian..in seven letters!)

How can we explain?

6th: In an Italian book read by Colón.. Colón added his personal notes in Spanish!!! So the book was possible to read: "scribe Eschine che ugnendo e lombi alla donna di sangue di zecche di bue selvatico nero, gli viene in tedio venere, item l'amore" And colón added "como verna en fastidio venere e el amor a las mujeres"

Only we have one line written in Italian by Colón.. and it is a Hispanized Italian

7th: In his personal diary (of course in Spanish) when he made a comparision... always the comparision is with Spain (never with Italy).. "y tan verdes, y sus hojas como las de Castilla en el mes de abril y de mayo"---(so greenish as its leaves as those in Castile in April and May) in other comparision he wrote "como en Andalucía" (as in Andalusia) "y otros paxaritos como en el dicho mes en España" (and other little birds as in the said month in Spain)...
Not even one allusion to Italy, Genoa, Lombardy, etc etc etc...

So.. not so easy to say where was he from... or if he could or couldn´t speak italian... there are lot of hypothesis...

Can you explain all these issues?
 
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Oct 2015
5,221
Matosinhos Portugal
#33
Where, how, why... did he learn? He likely learned Spanish in Portugal... in fact, till 19th Century, the Spanish /castillian was the second language in Portugal... so.. it is possible he learned there... but it is not sure...
and I like to speak about facts.


Desculpe amigo martin76 voçê está errado » Sorry, Martin, you're wrong.


This separation between Galician (Galicia) and Portuguese (Portugal) was only accentuated in the fourteenth century, when the political autonomy of the new kingdom was consolidated, and it was in the fifteenth century, through the Portuguese discoveries that the language of Camoes was gone expanding and spreading through the various points of the Globe. The first literary document written in the Portuguese language arose from the twelfth century, when there was a predominance of spoken language.

The great navigations, from the 15th century onwards, extended the dominions of Portugal and brought the Portuguese language to the new lands of Africa (Angola, Mozambique, Guinea Bissau, Sao Tome and Principe), islands near the African coast (Azores, Madeira) , Asia (Macau, Goa, Daman, Diu), Oceania (Timor) and America (Brazil).


In portuguese

Esta separação entre o galego (Galiza) e o português (Portugal) vem acentuar-se apenas no século XIV, aquando da consolidação politica autónoma do novo reino, sendo que foi no século XV, através dos descobrimentos portugueses que a língua de Camões se foi ampliando e espalhando pelos vários pontos do Globo. O primeiro documento literário escrito no idioma português surgiu a partir do século XII, quando havia o predomínio da língua falada.
As grandes navegações, a partir do século XV d.C. ampliaram os domínios de Portugal e levaram a Língua Portuguesa às novas terras da África (Angola, Moçambique, Guiné-Bissau, São Tomé e Príncipe), ilhas próximas da costa africana (Açores, Madeira), Ásia (Macau, Goa, Damão, Diu), Oceania (Timor) e América (Brasil).
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,344
Spain
#34
Where, how, why... did he learn? He likely learned Spanish in Portugal... in fact, till 19th Century, the Spanish /castillian was the second language in Portugal... so.. it is possible he learned there... but it is not sure...
and I like to speak about facts.


Desculpe amigo martin76 voçê está errado » Sorry, Martin, you're wrong.


This separation between Galician (Galicia) and Portuguese (Portugal) was only accentuated in the fourteenth century, when the political autonomy of the new kingdom was consolidated, and it was in the fifteenth century, through the Portuguese discoveries that the language of Camoes was gone expanding and spreading through the various points of the Globe. The first literary document written in the Portuguese language arose from the twelfth century, when there was a predominance of spoken language.

The great navigations, from the 15th century onwards, extended the dominions of Portugal and brought the Portuguese language to the new lands of Africa (Angola, Mozambique, Guinea Bissau, Sao Tome and Principe), islands near the African coast (Azores, Madeira) , Asia (Macau, Goa, Daman, Diu), Oceania (Timor) and America (Brazil).


In portuguese

Esta separação entre o galego (Galiza) e o português (Portugal) vem acentuar-se apenas no século XIV, aquando da consolidação politica autónoma do novo reino, sendo que foi no século XV, através dos descobrimentos portugueses que a língua de Camões se foi ampliando e espalhando pelos vários pontos do Globo. O primeiro documento literário escrito no idioma português surgiu a partir do século XII, quando havia o predomínio da língua falada.
As grandes navegações, a partir do século XV d.C. ampliaram os domínios de Portugal e levaram a Língua Portuguesa às novas terras da África (Angola, Moçambique, Guiné-Bissau, São Tomé e Príncipe), ilhas próximas da costa africana (Açores, Madeira), Ásia (Macau, Goa, Damão, Diu), Oceania (Timor) e América (Brasil).
Well, It is clear Colón couldn´t write in Italian... it is clear he learned Spanish as the only language for writing and he learned long time before he arrived to Huelva... and he likely learned Spanish in Portugal because in 15th Century it was the "common cultivated" language as in 13th Century it was the Galician-Portuguese.

In any case to to say Colón was an italian as so joyfully say our dear italians friends it is a issue worth some thoughtfulness
 
Jan 2017
60
Italy, EU
#35
Can you tell more about the Venice plans?
We know that Gasparo Contarini, a Venetian patrician, contacted Caboto to discuss a plan to explore the New World. In the end, the Venetian senate did not finance the plan.

It wasn't specifialy about Venezuela though, that was my mistake. Venezuela (little Venice) was a name given to that land by Amerigo Vespucci, hence my confusion.
 
Apr 2018
261
Italy
#36
Well, It is clear Colón couldn´t write in Italian... it is clear he learned Spanish as the only language for writing and he learned long time before he arrived to Huelva... and he likely learned Spanish in Portugal because in 15th Century it was the "common cultivated" language as in 13th Century it was the Galician-Portuguese.

In any case to to say Colón was an italian as so joyfully say our dear italians friends it is a issue worth some thoughtfulness

Colombo himselsf stated to be born in Genova, there are documentes that mentioned him and his family in Genova, and contemporanies stated that he was genoese.
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,344
Spain
#37
Colombo himselsf stated to be born in Genova, there are documentes that mentioned him and his family in Genova, and contemporanies stated that he was genoese.
Where did he say I am from Genoa? Never. By other side his surname was Colón.. he never wrote Columbus and never it is never nor Columbus, nor Colombo.. his surname was Colón as he always signatured and as his son wrote... our surname is Colón)... So if you say his surname is Colombo it is the same if other said his surname was Kang-Yon-Joon.

So it is clear Colón was not from Castile.. nothing more.. and also we know he Couldn´t write in Italian (also it is clear).. and we know he always wrote in Spanish when he wrote to italian people... and when he wrote his personal diary or a simple marginal note.

That are facts. The rest are thoughts

His signature;

 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,344
Spain
#38
Colombo himselsf stated to be born in Genova, there are documentes that mentioned him and his family in Genova, and contemporanies stated that he was genoese.
Where did he say I am from Genoa? Never. By other side his surname was Colón.. he never wrote Columbus and never it is never nor Columbus, nor Colombo.. his surname was Colón as his son wrote... our surname is Colón)... So if you say his surname is Colombo it is the same if other said his surname was Kang-Yon-Joon.

So it is clear Colón was not from Castile.. nothing more.. and also we know he Couldn´t write in Italian (also it is clear).. and we know he always wrote in Spanish when he wrote to italian people... and when he wrote his personal diary or a simple marginal note.

That are facts. The rest are thoughts

His signature;

 
Jan 2017
60
Italy, EU
#39
Columbus said that he was from Genoa in a 1498 deed of primogeniture ("As I came from Genoa and was born there") conserved in the General Archive of Sevilla

Also, contemporary writers and his SON referred to him as the "genoese navigator". So, there is hard evidence and that's the end of the story.

There is a reason why the consensus among historians is that he was Italian.
 
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martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,344
Spain
#40
Columbus said that he was from Genoa in a 1498 deed of primogeniture ("As I came from Genoa and was born there") conserved in the General Archive of Sevilla

Also, contemporary writers and his SON referred to him as the "genoese navigator". So, there is hard evidence and that's the end of the story.

There is a reason why the consensus among historians is that he was Italian.
barely "end of history"... You are talking about the 1498, February 22nd.. to setting up a Majorat... the problem is 1498 paper is not original... but a copy... a copy "appeared" mysterious and curiously...lileky "rigged"...not written by Colón because it is not his spelling.

About the falsehood of the 1498 paper (Spanish)

The Last Will and Testament of Christopher Columbus dated 1498, known as the Mayorazgo (Majorat), materialized in Spain decades after the discoverer died. The document was presented during the Columbus inheritance lawsuit by an Italian imposter named Balthazar Colombo who was not a family relation. The document includes the statement “being I born in Genoa,” which has been utilized as the crucial proof that the Discoverer of America was born in Genoa, Italy. However, neither the contents of the Mayorazgo nor the circumstances of its creation pass scientific scrutiny. It turns out to be a fraudulent document invented by Balthazar Colombo in his shameless effort to steal from the discoverer’s legitimate heirs the immense inheritance of the Dukedom of Veragua, Admiral of the Indies and Marquis of Jamaica.

I can see you have not evidence at all... and I can see you don´t want TO EXPLAIN why COLÓN never wrote in Italian language.... your silent is the best evidence you don´t know where COLÓN born...

The Italian nationalism from 19th Century pretend (and the Italian lobby in USA) to appropriate the discovery of America without evidences.. as the poor imposter (that really italian named Balthazar Colombo)...
 
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