So many Italian Explorers and ?

Apr 2018
252
Italy
#41
- There is a notary act of 1470 where Colombo was cited for the first time. Also Colombo rememberd this in 1504.

- An other from 1479.
-A letter of Colomb to Baink of Saint George in Genoa
- Letter to Nicolò Oderico ambassador of Genoese Republic in Castilla
-Notary act of 1496
-Notary act of 1500 and an other of 1501 in Savona.
-Biography of Son Diego.
-Records of his contemporanies


Spanish claims are pityful.
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,146
Spain
#42
- There is a notary act of 1470 where Colombo was cited for the first time. Also Colombo rememberd this in 1504.

- An other from 1479.
-A letter of Colomb to Baink of Saint George in Genoa
- Letter to Nicolò Oderico ambassador of Genoese Republic in Castilla
-Notary act of 1496
-Notary act of 1500 and an other of 1501 in Savona.
-Biography of Son Diego.
-Records of his contemporanies


Spanish claims are pityful.
Not notary in 1496 but in 1498...and it is false.
The letter to the bank is written in Spanish not in Italian... very "funny" one "italian" writing in "Spanish" to a italian bankers...

The italian invented many hipothesis to try and explaing why Colón always wrote in Spanish and never in Italian...

The letters to Oderico are written in Spanish not in Italian..
His own son in his book didn´t say Colón were from Genoa... he only said people said.... and he wrote his surname is Colón not Colombo.

By other side I don´t say Colón is Spanish... likely he was Spanish.. or from Majorca or from Catalonia or a Spanish Sefardita born in Italy....
Who discovered, explored, conquered and evangiled the Indias were not Italian but Spaniards... If I believed Colón was a Italian.. I would say.. as it was Cabotto or Vespuccio...but I have many doubts about he was from Italy...

Becase he ALWAYS wrote in Spanish and never in Italian... and of course, in this forum none Italian are going to explain why he wrote everything in Spanish Language.... when he wrote to Genoese Ambassador, to bankers to everybody... Are you going to explain that?

Regards.
 
Oct 2015
4,969
Matosinhos Portugal
#43
In my opinion the name of Christopher Columbus is a myth about his nationality he discovered America more than 500 years ago and still have not discovered his nationality some say he is Genoves - Spanish Castilian - galêgo - Portuguese - Italian.
His name to me may be real, but his nationality to me is unknown. As some historians say, Critovão Colombo was born in Villa de Cuba in Alentejo Portugal. Truth or lie to me is all a myth about your nationality.

In portuguese

Na minha opinião o nome de Cristovão Colombo é um mito sobre a sua nacionalidade ele descobriu américa há mais de 500 anos e ainda não descobriram a sua nacionalidade uns dizem que ele é Genoves - Espanhol castelhano - galêgo - português - italiano.
O nome dele para mim pode ser real,mas a sua nacionalidade para mim é um incógnita.Como dizem alguns historiadores que Critovão Colombo nasceu em Vila de Cuba no Alentejo Portugal. Verdade ou mentira para mim é tudo um mito sobre a sua nacionalidade.



https://www.publico.pt/2008/05/23/c...tovao-colombo-era-portugues-e-de-cuba-1329784

click where it says continue reading

link in Portuguese I'm sorry for not being in English

clicar onde diz continuar a ler

link em português peço desculpa por não estar em lingua inglêsa
 
Jan 2017
48
Italy, EU
#44
In my opinion the name of Christopher Columbus is a myth about his nationality he discovered America more than 500 years ago and still have not discovered his nationality some say he is Genoves - Spanish Castilian - galêgo - Portuguese - Italian.
Not really, the consensus is pretty solid: he was born in the Republic of Genoa, he lived in Vico Dritto and then moved to Savona. The notary act from 1498 is considered authentic by most (all, to my knowledge) academic historians. But even if we exclude that document, there is simply too much evidence that he was Genoese coming from the authors of the 16th century. It's gonna be basically impossible to prove that all of that is false. And it would be some sort of weird conspiracy if that was the case.

- There is a notary act of 1470 where Colombo was cited for the first time. Also Colombo rememberd this in 1504.

- An other from 1479.
-A letter of Colomb to Baink of Saint George in Genoa
- Letter to Nicolò Oderico ambassador of Genoese Republic in Castilla
-Notary act of 1496
-Notary act of 1500 and an other of 1501 in Savona.
-Biography of Son Diego.
-Records of his contemporanies


Spanish claims are pityful.

There are even more proofs. Denying that he was Genoese is seriously an absurd and non-historical claim. Just by having this debate we look foolish to the outside world.
 
Last edited:
Oct 2015
4,969
Matosinhos Portugal
#45
Amigo Friend Renaissance Roman

What makes it false is that there are many historians in the world who do not tell the truth, then myths are created, we have the example of Cristovão Colombo, because he is not English German Dutch or Chinese, after all, everyone does not know his real nationality.

o que faz ser falso é existir muitos historiadores no mundo que não dizem as verdades,depois se criam mitos,temos o exemplo de Cristovão Colombo,porque não ele ser Inglês Alemão Holandes ou Chinés afinal todo mundo não sabe a sua real nacionalidade.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,890
Portugal
#46
- There is a notary act of 1470 where Colombo was cited for the first time. Also Colombo rememberd this in 1504.

- An other from 1479.
-A letter of Colomb to Baink of Saint George in Genoa
- Letter to Nicolò Oderico ambassador of Genoese Republic in Castilla
-Notary act of 1496
-Notary act of 1500 and an other of 1501 in Savona.
-Biography of Son Diego.
-Records of his contemporanies


Spanish claims are pityful.
Columbus was eventually Genovese, but this is an hard issue. Many forgeries have been made and the link betewn many documents found in Liguria with the name Colon doesn’t automatically establish that we are talking about the same person.


Not really, the consensus is pretty solid: he was born in the Republic of Genoa, he lived in Vico Dritto and then moved to Savona. The notary act from 1498 is considered authentic by most (all, to my knowledge) academic historians. But even if we exclude that document, there is simply too much evidence that he was Genoese coming from the authors of the 16th century. It's gonna be basically impossible to prove that all of that is false. And it would be some sort of weird conspiracy if that was the case.
It is a theme far from consensual, even if the consensus seems to be that the best shot is that he was from Liguria.

There are even more proofs. Denying that he was Genoese is seriously an absurd and non-historical claim. Just by having this debate we look foolish to the outside world.
There are many sources. The problem is the contradictions within. And the relations within. And this debate is far from absurd in the perspective of many, even if it is absurd in yours. As it will probably be far from absurd in the next centuries. Columbus had a hard relation with the true, and he was apparently hidden something from his past, so it will be hard to tell with sure if no further developments appear. As in all sciences, including social sciences, the historical knowledge is always provisional.
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,146
Spain
#47
Amigo Friend Renaissance Roman

What makes it false is that there are many historians in the world who do not tell the truth, then myths are created, we have the example of Cristovão Colombo, because he is not English German Dutch or Chinese, after all, everyone does not know his real nationality.

o que faz ser falso é existir muitos historiadores no mundo que não dizem as verdades,depois se criam mitos,temos o exemplo de Cristovão Colombo,porque não ele ser Inglês Alemão Holandes ou Chinés afinal todo mundo não sabe a sua real nacionalidade.
Exactly Latinus.. It is not any consensus... the 19th Century italian nationalist.. and other people whose nationality everybody know.. say Colón was a Italian... but they add not evidence...

I don´t say he was a Spanish... I said and say he was not from Castilla... but he could be from Majorca or Catalonia...or a Sefardita...
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,146
Spain
#48
Columbus was eventually Genovese, but this is an hard issue. Many forgeries have been made and the link betewn many documents found in Liguria with the name Colon doesn’t automatically establish that we are talking about the same person.




It is a theme far from consensual, even if the consensus seems to be that the best shot is that he was from Liguria.



There are many sources. The problem is the contradictions within. And the relations within. And this debate is far from absurd in the perspective of many, even if it is absurd in yours. As it will probably be far from absurd in the next centuries. Columbus had a hard relation with the true, and he was apparently hidden something from his past, so it will be hard to tell with sure if no further developments appear. As in all sciences, including social sciences, the historical knowledge is always provisional.
Tulius,

+1 It is not possible to say better than you have done. Nobody can say where Colón was from... because he hided (whatever reason he had) his roots and the place he was born.

His son... Don Hernando Colón NEVER wrote his father was from Genoa. I have the book here.. He wrote:

De la Patria, origen y nombre del Almirante Cristóbal Colón (About the Motherland, origin and name of Admiral Cristobal Colon):

His son Never...NEVER said my father is from Genoa... and never is never...

What he wrote (in Spanish because as his father.. Spanish was the only language he could write):

Por lo cual, algunos, que en cierta manera piensan oscurecer su fama, dicen que fue de Nervi; otros, que de Cugureo, y otros de Buyasco, que todos son lugares pequeños, cerca de la ciudad de Génova y en su misma ribera; y otros, que quieren engrandecerle más, dicen que era de Savona, y otros que genovés; y aun los que más le suben a la cumbre, le hacen de Plasencia,

(
Therefore, some people, who in some way think darken their fame, say it was from Nervi; others, that from Cugureo, and others from Buyasco, that they are all small places, near the city of Genoa and on its shore; and others, who want to magnify him more, say that he was from Savona, and others that he was a Genoese; and even those who climb the summit the most, make him from Plasencia)

His son never said my father is from Genoa.. or from Italy.. He only limited to say "some people"... "other people"... "it is said"..

Yes Tulius. you are right... to say he is from Genoa or from Madrid, Lisboa o Vladivostock... it is a non-scientific assumption.. it is not a FACT.. as the italian nationalist like to say from around 1892.
A FACT... (Italians don´t like about this)... a fact it is he NEVER wrote Italian.. a fact it is his Spanish language (only language he used for writing) have lot of "lusism" and "catalanism" but not "Italianism" (It is another fact).. a fact it is when he writes (few lines only) latin... he wrote Latin as a Spaniard would have done.. it is not an "italian Latin"! but a Spanish latin.. a Hispanized Latin...

There are only two possible hypothesis:

1st: He was not an Italian
2nd: If he was born in Italy... he couldn´t speak or writing in Italian language.

The philologists affirm Colón learned Spanish in Portugal... and fact it is he wrote in Spanish as minimun from 1481... but his 1481 Spanish is highly developed... that´s because it is affirmed he learned the Spanish time before 1481.

That are facts based on their letters, lines, books, diaries, notes etc

Another issue you have raised the problem very well it is the man appeared in Huelva from Algarves is not matched with the Colombos lived in Genoa. (This hypothesis was raised in 19th Century).. I am sure we are never going to know Where is Colón from)
 
Oct 2015
4,969
Matosinhos Portugal
#49
Exactly Latinus.. It is not any consensus... the 19th Century italian nationalist.. and other people whose nationality everybody know.. say Colón was a Italian... but they add not evidence...

I don´t say he was a Spanish... I said and say he was not from Castilla... but he could be from Majorca or Catalonia...or a Sefardita...
----------------------

I agree with you and Tulius.
It is not a question of nationalism, just knowing the true nationality of Cristovão Colombo
 
Apr 2018
252
Italy
#50
Columbus was eventually Genovese, but this is an hard issue. Many forgeries have been made and the link betewn many documents found in Liguria with the name Colon doesn’t automatically establish that we are talking about the same person.

He remembered one of these documents in his last times. And all people said he was genoese, were all idiots?
 

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