Song Dynasty VS Mongols: a conflict that lasted for half a century

Dec 2011
3,492
Mountains and Jungles of Southern China
Did the Mongol constantly try to invade southern Song for half a century? So southern Song army can be consider impressive since they manage to resist mighty Mongol invasion for half a century? Sorry not familiar with the detail.
The Mongols launched three major wars against the Song during half a century, the first from 1235 to 1241, the second in 1258, and the third in 1268. And there were skirmishes all along the way. So yes, the overall war could be considered to last around half a century.
 
Dec 2011
3,492
Mountains and Jungles of Southern China
Also worth for the notice is the fact that the "desire" for conquest and the efforts varied. The determination to conquer China for its wealth and knowledge far outweighed those for southeast asia or even Japan. Kinda like how US lost in vietnam but didnt care nearly as much as for more important hot spot conflicts (with more important enemies)
Yes, good point. The conquest of China was Mongol's major goal, and they devoted much of their resources and manpower to the conquest of China than to elsewhere.
 

HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,494
Also worth for the notice is the fact that the "desire" for conquest and the efforts varied. The determination to conquer China for its wealth and knowledge far outweighed those for southeast asia or even Japan. Kinda like how US lost in vietnam but didnt care nearly as much as for more important hot spot conflicts (with more important enemies)
Quite true. The amount of effort committed by the Mongols against the Song was magnitudes more than the amount of effort the Mongols committed against places such as Japan or Vietnam. The Mongols gave up Japan after 2 failed invasions, whereas the Mongols didn't give up invading the Song despite multiple failed coordinated invasion campaigns through the reign of two Khans (Ogedei and Mongke).
 
Feb 2011
1,595
It's also a point of biosphere that the Mongols had lost in Japan, Java, and Vietnam.
Absolutely. That's why it is hard to generalize about the Song's defensive qualities.

Another point is China was among the regions which shook off the Mongol joke the latest. That has to figure in an objective overall account of China's performance against the Mongols, too.


On the other hand, southern China, despite being somewhat hotter than Mongolia, is still largely in the temperate zone, and there are no significant geographical barriers between China and Mongolia.
This is ridiculous. If they were both in the temperate climate then why did the communist command economy forbid heating south of the Yangtze? Southern China is very unlike Mongolia in terms of climate, topography, water systems and environment. Two different worlds actually. That gradient played into the hands of the Song defenders.
 
Jan 2015
955
EARTH
This is ridiculous. If they were both in the temperate climate then why did the communist command economy forbid heating south of the Yangtze? Southern China is very unlike Mongolia in terms of climate, topography, water systems and environment. Two different worlds actually. That gradient played into the hands of the Song defenders.

If heating was not seen as necessary by the inhabitants, why ban it? The mass wouldn't use it en masse.
It was, and the communist probably thought the energy could be used somewhere else with less priority than in the Northeast.
Expats complain about cold weather in those areas as south of Guangzhou...

Winter without heating in Guangzhou | Living A Dream In China

Modern temperatures with natural and human global warming.
http://www.worldweatheronline.com/Guangzhou-weather-averages/Guangdong/CN.aspx
 
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Dec 2011
3,492
Mountains and Jungles of Southern China
The Great Detour

The Mongols were fierce warriors but they also had some very good tactics. One of their tactics was that if you face too much resistance in one area, you make a detour and go for the area that is undefended or less defended. We have already seen that they did this during the conquest of the Jin, avoiding the heavy Jurchen defenses in the front, making a detour through Song territory and attacking the Jurchens from behind.

In 1241, after the death of Ogedei Khan, there was a conflict about who would inherit the throne. Ogedei's son Guyuk inherited the throne, but he died two years later. During this time the Mongols attacked Sichuan, but was defeated by Song general Yu Jie. Yu built a series of mountain fortresses during his tenure as the Governor of Sichuan, including the famous Fishing Town Fortress, and these fortresses would prove to have great use in the second Song-Mongol war.

In 1251, the Mongols finally decided to let Mongke Khan to inherit the throne. Mongke was the son of Tolui and grandson of Chinggis Khan. After his enthronement, Mongke launched the third western expedition, and he also planned to invade the Song again.

To avoid the Song fortifications along the Huai and the Yangtse rivers, Mongke's younger brother Kublai suggested that they could make a great detour to attack the southwestern kingdom of Dali, located in modernday Yunnan, and then invade the Song from behind. Mongke accepted Kublai's plan and in 1252 he sent Kublai with 100,000 troops to invade Dali. In 1254, Kublai captured the last Dali emperor Duan Xingzhi.
 
Feb 2011
1,595
Moloc, let's get not distracted. I already agreed with purakjelia that the different biospheres were a key factor in the Mongol expansion and have to be factored in any serious analysis of Mongol military performance.

But then he goes on and claims that the biosphere of the rice paddies of Southern China was not so much different after all from the native steppe lands of the Mongols. This is outlandish.

Overall, the semi-arid Iranian plateau or the Black Sea steppe were MUCH more akin to the traditional Mongol biosphere than the water-soaked hilly landscape of Southern China.

From this natural advantage, the Song defense profited enormously, as did the Vietnamese even more.
 
Dec 2011
3,492
Mountains and Jungles of Southern China
Absolutely. That's why it is hard to generalize about the Song's defensive qualities.

Another point is China was among the regions which shook off the Mongol joke the latest. That has to figure in an objective overall account of China's performance against the Mongols, too.

This is ridiculous. If they were both in the temperate climate then why did the communist command economy forbid heating south of the Yangtze? Southern China is very unlike Mongolia in terms of climate, topography, water systems and environment. Two different worlds actually. That gradient played into the hands of the Song defenders.
Again we see Aetius's biased opinions.

China was actually the region that shook off the Mongols first, among all the regions conquered by the Mongols. From 1279 to 1368, less than 100 years, the Ming was established. In other places the Mongols ruled much longer, in Russia they ruled more than 200 years, and in Central Asia more than 400 years.

Southern China is indeed largely inside the temperate zone, you need to learn your geography. Only the extreme south of southern China is in the tropical zone, all the rest are in temperate zone. And the Song-Mongol wars were mostly fought along the Yangtse River in Central China, not in the extreme south.

The fact that the CCP forbids heating in the south is probably to save energy, but I have heard many southerners complain that the government should give them heating during the winter months, because sometimes it can be rather cold.
 

HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,494
purak, if you don't want other people's agenda splitting your story into different sections through multiple pages, perhaps you should create a separate thread with all your stories in one post.