Sources for the Tibetan Era of Fragmentation

Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,798
United States
The Tibetan era of fragmentation is traditionally dated to the ninth to eleventh centuries or even later. Basically the empire split up into numerous warring factions, none of which had suzerainty over the others until the Mongols backed the Sakya in the mid 1200s.

I haven't been able to find much information on this period, do we even have sources and records from it?
 

VHS

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
4,679
Florania
If Songsten is correct, even from 1911-1952, Tibet was under a stage of extreme fragmentation and peace and security only returned in 1976.
 

heavenlykaghan

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
4,446
There was no real state structure in Tibet since the collapse of the empire. Even the Sakyapa was hardly a state. The Ganden regime was the first state like authority established in Tibet since the imperial period, and had tax collecting functions with a rudimentary bureaucracy, but its extent of control was very limited. Geoffrey Samuel has wrote extensively on the subject.
 
Jul 2014
1,638
world
If Songsten is correct, even from 1911-1952, Tibet was under a stage of extreme fragmentation and peace and security only returned in 1976.

The last 150 years of Tibetan history :

The Amdo rebellion of the 1830s lasted for almost 30 years and showed everybody how weak Qing was when the Qing couldn't protect Mongols and Uighurs against Amdo tribes in Gansu and Qinghai.

The Ngyarong Khampa rebellion of mid 1800s lasted for over 10 years and wiped out Qing and Lhasa influence from Kham.

Ngyarong Khampas defeated Qing and local Khampa tribes to form one of the biggest but short living Tibetan state. This stated extended from Ganzi in the east to golok in the north to Chamdo in the west. Almost all of Kham and huge portions of Amdo paid fealty to the Ngyarongwas. This short lived state was destroyed by the Lhasa when it united all the enemies of Ngyarong and defeated them. Afterwards almost all the Buddhist monasteries in Ngyarong and Jialrong were converted into yellow hat sect monasteries.

The Deqin Khampa rebellion of the early 1900s resulted in QIng invasion which led to Qing resurgence in tibet for few years.

The Sichuan and Qinghai wars of Lhasan against the KMT.

The Amdo Golok rebellion of 1910s which lasted for well over 30 years.

The Khampa rebellion of the mid 1930s against the Lhasa.

The khampa/amdo rebellion of 1956 -1976 against PLA.

Not much peace in Kham and Amdo areas but central Tibetans had relatively more peaceful existence.

PS: I have not included many small rebellions because that will take whole pages.
 
Jul 2014
1,638
world
The Tibetan era of fragmentation is traditionally dated to the ninth to eleventh centuries or even later. Basically the empire split up into numerous warring factions, none of which had suzerainty over the others until the Mongols backed the Sakya in the mid 1200s.

I haven't been able to find much information on this period, do we even have sources and records from it?
Read about Guge kingdom. It was founded by the direct descendant of the last emperor of Tibet and was the greatest of all the successor states.

Also of interest is PhagMogdru confederacy which tried to imitate the empire period laws and customs in 14th/15th century.

Ripung and Tsang dynasty which followed Phagmo Dru are last real kingships of central Tibet.

Check out the ten kingships of Kham. many of whom claimed descent from the Yarlung emperors.
 

Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,798
United States
If Songsten is correct, even from 1911-1952, Tibet was under a stage of extreme fragmentation and peace and security only returned in 1976.
Depends on what you mean by extreme fragmentation. From the mid 1200s onto the mid or late 1600s there were a few powerful polities that competed for lordship over Tibet, each ruling for around 80 years or so.

There was no real state structure in Tibet since the collapse of the empire. Even the Sakyapa was hardly a state. The Ganden regime was the first state like authority established in Tibet since the imperial period, and had tax collecting functions with a rudimentary bureaucracy, but its extent of control was very limited. Geoffrey Samuel has wrote extensively on the subject.
Thanks I'll look him up.

Read about Guge kingdom. It was founded by the direct descendant of the last emperor of Tibet and was the greatest of all the successor states.

Also of interest is PhagMogdru confederacy which tried to imitate the empire period laws and customs in 14th/15th century.

Ripung and Tsang dynasty which followed Phagmo Dru are last real kingships of central Tibet.

Check out the ten kingships of Kham. many of whom claimed descent from the Yarlung emperors.
Yeah I've read some about Guge and its neighbors/associated polities (Purang, Mustang, Ladakh, Zanskar, Baltistan, etc.), some from A.H. Francke's works. I have a few English sources on the Phagmo Grupa and I know a bit about the Kham rulers.

I'll check into these but do we have much in the area of good primary sources?
 

VHS

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
4,679
Florania
The last 150 years of Tibetan history :

The Amdo rebellion of the 1830s lasted for almost 30 years and showed everybody how weak Qing was when the Qing couldn't protect Mongols and Uighurs against Amdo tribes in Gansu and Qinghai.

The Ngyarong Khampa rebellion of mid 1800s lasted for over 10 years and wiped out Qing and Lhasa influence from Kham.

Ngyarong Khampas defeated Qing and local Khampa tribes to form one of the biggest but short living Tibetan state. This stated extended from Ganzi in the east to golok in the north to Chamdo in the west. Almost all of Kham and huge portions of Amdo paid fealty to the Ngyarongwas. This short lived state was destroyed by the Lhasa when it united all the enemies of Ngyarong and defeated them. Afterwards almost all the Buddhist monasteries in Ngyarong and Jialrong were converted into yellow hat sect monasteries.

The Deqin Khampa rebellion of the early 1900s resulted in QIng invasion which led to Qing resurgence in tibet for few years.

The Sichuan and Qinghai wars of Lhasan against the KMT.

The Amdo Golok rebellion of 1910s which lasted for well over 30 years.

The Khampa rebellion of the mid 1930s against the Lhasa.

The khampa/amdo rebellion of 1956 -1976 against PLA.

Not much peace in Kham and Amdo areas but central Tibetans had relatively more peaceful existence.

PS: I have not included many small rebellions because that will take whole pages.
Even so, the 14th Dalai Lama did not seem to possess full authority in Tibet as some of the Free Tibet people claims.
What were the political authorities in Tibet from 1911-1952? The Republic of China had nominal control if I read correctly.
Was it true that Ganden Phodrang did not fully control even today's Xizang autonomous region?
 
Jul 2014
1,638
world
Even so, the 14th Dalai Lama did not seem to possess full authority in Tibet as some of the Free Tibet people claims.
What were the political authorities in Tibet from 1911-1952? The Republic of China had nominal control if I read correctly.
Was it true that Ganden Phodrang did not fully control even today's Xizang autonomous region?
No, he did not rule with absolute authority in TAR let alone in Kham and Amdo areas. His authority was very strong in western (ngari)and southern/central Tibet (u-Tsang) but not so in far eastern (Kham) or northwest ( amdo) areas.

His influence on Yushu nomads were minimal but Golok nomads were fanatic supporters. The biggest khampa kingdom of Derge was divided between pro Lhasa and anti Lhasa factions. The business and secular lords generally supported Lhasa while the religious elite hated Lhasa’s ruling geluk sect.

In Dartsedo, the businessmen supported KMT and religious elite supported Lhasa. And it was similar everywhere in Tibetan inhabited areas.

Galden phodrong was quite strong in early post Qing period. They held direct control of many areas outside of TAR but this influence was lost in the 1920’s and early 30’s.

The only place Lhasa controlled with absolute authority was Utsang and Ngari and there too by the early1940s Lhasa had to negotiate with local lords first for doing anything serious.
 

Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,798
United States
How much control did the Phag-mo Gru-pa, Rin-spungs-pa, and Gtsang-pa have?