Spain and Portugal will have common celebration of the 500th anniversary of first circumnavigation of the Earth

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
5,029
Sydney
Been there in the summer of the revolution , Army generals were heroes
people were going bonkers with spray paint cans ,
the white walls were a perfect medium to be painted with garish slogans
Portugese drivers idea of careful driving was honking their horn at crossroads shooting through at high speed
trains were very slow , very crowded and very friendly .
after a somewhat constipated Franquist Spain it felt good to be there
 
Aug 2019
16
SPAIN
Some free downloable resources (in spanish), from the spanish Ministry of Defence website:
A "ligth" comic book for "youngsters": Juan Sebastián Elcano. La primera vuelta al Mundo

A "more serious" recopilation of themes debated in an international congress, march 2019: Actas del Congreso Internacional V Centenario de la Primera vuelta al Mundo.
A quote from this book (sadly only the abstracts are in english):
The circumnavigation of the globe is an important event which cannot be reduced to its national dimensions, whether Portuguese or Spanish. In order to understand its meaning today, the historian has to introduce a new perspective in which other global actors must be taken into consideration, such as Ming China, Mexico and the Pacific Ocean. Moreover, the circumnavigation offers also a clue to understand the progressive making of Europe and European modernity because it is clearly related to the birth of the West. This is how this event could contribute to the making of a dynamic European memory that might be taught to and shared by all the peoples living in Europe, be European born or not.
 
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martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,646
Spain
Some free downloable resources (in spanish), from the spanish Ministry of Defence website:
A "ligth" comic book for "youngsters": Juan Sebastián Elcano. La primera vuelta al Mundo

A "more serious" recopilation of themes debated in an international congress, march 2019: Actas del Congreso Internacional V Centenario de la Primera vuelta al Mundo.
A quote from this book (sadly only the abstracts are in english):
The circumnavigation of the globe is an important event which cannot be reduced to its national dimensions, whether Portuguese or Spanish. In order to understand its meaning today, the historian has to introduce a new perspective in which other global actors must be taken into consideration, such as Ming China, Mexico and the Pacific Ocean. Moreover, the circumnavigation offers also a clue to understand the progressive making of Europe and European modernity because it is clearly related to the birth of the West. This is how this event could contribute to the making of a dynamic European memory that might be taught to and shared by all the peoples living in Europe, be European born or not.
?... MANIPULATION!

Was the voyave to the Moon an USA´s success or not? or USA is not matched with the Apollo project and it was a "global" product (because there were foreigners in NASA? Because the first circumnaviagion round the world was a Spanish (Castillian) success.... just did against the oposition of the King of Portugal!!!!!

Yesterday I hear... A formal complaint was filed against McDonald France for historical manipulation. In France, McDonalds has distributed a comic about traveling around the world to children where the word Spain is never mentioned ... and if that of Portugal.
McDonald say Portuguese gave first turn around the world.. what´s absolutly false! 100% was a Spanish project... well Spanish was portuguese too.. it was a 100% Castilian project and 100% portuguese were nationalized Castilian (Magallanes the first one!.. and I write Magallanes because it was the surname he had when he begun the expedition with the rest of spaniards).

5 Spanish Ships:

TRINIDAD commanded by Magalhães; a portuguese naturalized castilian (this last one can not be argument because the Letter of Nature still exist in Archivo General de Indias in Seville).
CONCEPCIÓN commanded by Gaspar de Quesada (Castilian fron the Kingdom of Jaén) (in this ship sailed Juan Sebastián Elcano.. the spaniard was the first man to circumnavigate the planet.. a Castilian from the Province of Guipúzcoa)
SAN ANTONIO, commanded by Juan de Cartagena (Castilian)
SANTIAGO, commanded by João Serrão, a Portuguese naturalized Castilian.
VICTORIA, commanded by Luis de Mendoza (Castilian)

265 men:

164 Spaniards (74 from Andalusia (mostly from Seville), 32 from Basconized provinces (mostly from Guipúzcoa), 21 from Castille, 10 from Galicia, 4 from Navarre, 2 from Aragon, 2 from Extremadura and 19 from other Spanish provinces).
26 Italians (From Genoa and Sicily.. and it is convenient not to forget that Sicily was a Spanish Dominion as Trieste and Pola were Austrian in 1914)
25 Portugueses (in 16th Century they were counted as Spaniards but not as Castilians)
19 Frenchmen
11 Germans
6 Bretons (From Bretagne or Brittany)
5 Dutchmen (in those days lands belonged to Charles I and V)
3 Greeks
3 Irishmen
2 Moors
1 Englishman

Source: Martin Navarrete. Colección de los viajes y descubrimientos que hicieron por mar los españoles desde fines del siglo XV. it is a collection of records...it was published between 1825 and 1837. 5 volumens.

Pigaffeta told 237 men.


To say it was a Portuguese enterprise of a cynicism without limits in the post-truth era. Next it is going to say in Auschiwtz.. Jewish exterminated nazis! or the Battle of Gettysburg was a Spanish victory!!! because Commander in chief was a Spaniard from Cadis.. married with a Cadis woman and they always spoke Spanish between them!

Pero resolvimos de común a cuerdo morir antes de caer en manos de los portugueses y así con grandísimo trabajo de la bomba.... (Juan Sebastián Elcano.. letter to the King Charles I).

But we resolved by mutual agreement to die before falling into the hands of the Portuguese and so with great work of the bilge pump (Juan Sebastian Elcano)....

Not, the circumnavegation was a Spanish enterprise.. made against the opposition of Portugal that tried everything to destroy the expedition.


I won´t never accept the lie as truth.... or Auschiwtz was a Jewish camp of extermination where nazis were tortured and mass-murdered?
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,914
Portugal
Martin,

I mainly agree with you. To say that it was a Portuguese enterprise doesn’t make sense. It was a Castilian enterprise made with the help of some Portuguese, against the best interests of the Portuguese crown that tried to oppose to it. Those Portuguese were seen as traitors, but they were essential to the success of the voyage, since they had knowledge about the Orient that the Castilians still didn’t had at the time.

It was also a task made by humans, so it is a part of the history of mankind, it is also a part of the history of Portugal, not only because there were Portuguese there, but essentially because Portugal was an active actor in this narrative, the villain if you prefer to see it that way. And I am glad that all these 500 years after the two countries can celebrate an event that was relevant for the history of both and for the history of mankind.
 
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martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,646
Spain
Martin,

I mainly agree with you. To say that it was a Portuguese enterprise doesn’t make sense. It was a Castilian enterprise made with the help of some Portuguese, against the best interests of the Portuguese crown that tried to oppose to it. Those Portuguese were seen as traitors, but they were essential to the success of the voyage, since they had knowledge about the Orient that the Castilians still didn’t had at the time.

It was also a task made by humans, so it is a part of the history of mankind, it is also a part of the history of Portugal, not only because there were Portuguese there, but essentially because Portugal was an active actor in this narrative, the villain if you prefer to see it that way. And I am glad that all these 500 years after the two countries can celebrate an event that was relevant for the history of both and for the history of mankind.

Dear Tulius.. I agree one time more.

It was not your.... it is the Manipulation used by governments, politicans, mass media etc etc... Castilian expedition was possible because the Magalhães´dream and although Portuguese were 9,43% people took part in expedition.. they were the 40% commands and officers, pilots etc. The expedition was done because Charles I and the Castilian cities put the money, the ships, the crews etc.. and It was done against the opposition of the Portuguese Goverment (to say the King).
When early 2019, Portuguese Government requested internationally that Circumnavigatin it be recognized as a Portuguese enterprise, the Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs reacted immediately and threatened to take Portugal to an international court.

if we agree Apollo project was USA, ... Circumnavegation was Spanish (better to say Castilian). And Yes, Magalhaes was portuguese... as Don Jorge Meade was Spanish.... but I don´t think the battle of Gettysburg was a Spanish Victory....or I don´t think III Reich was not German but Austrian because Hitler was Austrian and not German!

By the rest I agree with you... and waiting the Government take McDonald to a International Court and McDonald´s burguers can prove.. it was a Portuguese entrepreise under Portuguese flag on behalf of King of Portugal!
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,914
Portugal
When early 2019, Portuguese Government requested internationally that Circumnavigatin it be recognized as a Portuguese enterprise, the Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs reacted immediately and threatened to take Portugal to an international court.
The Portuguese Government made that?
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,914
Portugal
I don´t know.. I say what I´ve read in Newspapers... and I don´t believe in papers! But who knows?


I am sure you know the Globe (El Mundo).. you can read: January 29, 2019. Manipulación portuguesa (Portuguese Manipulation). This is not about history but politic....
I also don’t know. From this year I only had seen that the common celebrations.

And this, from 2018, about the funds: Resolução do Conselho de Ministros 52/2018, 2018-05-04

The event is entitled: “Comemorações do V Centenário da Circum-Navegação comandada pelo navegador português Fernão de Magalhães”, so no reference to Spain or Castile. Being a governmental and political document to fund the event it doesn’t shock me, albeit not a lie it uncovers the truth. But is better a common event, like they agreed on the beginning of this year.

The “Observador”, a newspaper of the conservative/new right has been publishing some news, this is from January: Governo espanhol pede satisfações à UNESCO sobre candidatura da rota de Magalhães feita por Portugal
 
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martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,646
Spain
I also don’t know. From this year I only had seen that the common celebrations.

And this, from 2018, about the funds: Resolução do Conselho de Ministros 52/2018, 2018-05-04

The event is entitled: “Comemorações do V Centenário da Circum-Navegação comandada pelo navegador português Fernão de Magalhães”, so no reference to Spain or Castile. Being a governmental and political document to fund the event it doesn’t shock me, albeit not a lie it uncovers the truth. But is better a common event, like they agreed on the beginning of this year.

The “Observador”, a newspaper of the conservative/new right has been publishing some news, this is from January: Governo espanhol pede satisfações à UNESCO sobre candidatura da rota de Magalhães feita por Portugal

One time more dear Tuluis... the best is politics hand off historical matters.... because goverments only want manipulations... sorry.. Governments need manipulation.. because without manipulation.. not government at all...it is very interesting what say Portuguese government because it is the worst of the lie.... a half trruth!

Really it was a Circumnavigatiion commanded by a Portuguese.. Magalhaes...and planned by a Portuguese... Magalhaes... what Portuguese government lie (a kind of lie or manipulation consisted in Silent or omition.... communist were masterpieces about that in the "red good days"....

What Government should have said...Comemorações do V Centenário da Circum-Navegação comandada pelo navegador português Fernão de Magalhães numa expedição castelhana, com dinheiro castelhano, com bandeira castelhana, com tripulação castelhana e em nome de Castela, e não da Espanha, pela simples razão de que Portugal e Castela eram a Espanha há cinco séculos, um conjunto de reinos independentes, cristãos da Península "....longer title.. but not manipulated!

So, dear Tuluis... the best can do Politicians (from one and other side of the border)....to hand off!